Autopilot bug with lane change

[Knightshade]

I disagree in my Model 3 in the latest owners manual under the AutoPilot section (not enhanced) it clearly states lane change on turn signal. Then lists MANY warnings. You may be right but Tesla is NOT being clear.

The latest manual doesn't contain anything about the non-enhanced AP.

Look at page 65. Which I quoted earlier. Where it specifically tells you all the discussion to come about driver assist features only apply to owners with enhanced autopilot or FSD options on their car.

So a section of the site dedicated to the sole purpose of describing the features of the new package contains a video that does not accurately represent the features of the new package. [?QUOTE]

Since the video explicitly states it's about a different package and somebody forgot to remove it.

 

[dhrivnak]

The latest manual doesn't contain anything about the non-enhanced AP.

Look at page 65. Which I quoted earlier. Where it specifically tells you all the discussion to come about driver assist features only apply to owners with enhanced autopilot or FSD options on their car.

That is NOT what my manual says. Notice the section it says AutoPilot. Enhanced is not mentioned. Then read the last sentence as it clearly states when using auto steer you can use your turn signal to change into an adjacent lane.

 

[Knightshade]

That is NOT what my manual says. Notice the section it says AutoPilot. Enhanced is not mentioned.

Yes, it is.

The very first sentence after the Beta warning mentions it.

If you have purchased the optional Enhanced Autopilot or Full Self-Driving Capability packages, you can use Autosteer...

No wonder people keep getting this wrong- they refuse to read beyond the page header.

Maybe this will help you?

Not to mention- that screen shot is page 73 of the manual.

I specifically told you to look earlier at page 65. Where it says exactly what I quoted. Here's the PDF if you're having page number issues with the online one-


https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/Model 3 Owners Manual.pdf

These convenience features, designed to reduce driver workload, are available only if your Tesla vehicle is equipped with the optional Enhanced Autopilot or Full SelfDriving Capability packages:
• Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (see TrafficAware Cruise Control on page 67).
• Autosteer (see Autosteer on page 73)

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

Since the video explicitly states it's about a different package and somebody forgot to remove it.

You've agreed that the information included in a section of the site rewritten to describe the features of the new package does not accurately represent those features. The "why" is irrelevant. We're done here.

You skipped this part.

EAP contained TACC & AS
AP contains TACC & AS.

If Tesla wants to redefine what features comprise TACC & AS, then they need to clearly enumerate all of the changes to those feature sets up front so that consumers can make informed buying decisions. Tesla didn't do that.

 

[Knightshade]

You've agreed that the information included in a section of the site rewritten to describe the features of the new package does not accurately represent those features. The "why" is irrelevant.

No, I agreed that section was only partly re-written, and they simply left some original, now out of date, info behind- the video. But it remains clearly labeled as only applying to the old package anyway.

That's pretty relevant.

We're done here.

You skipped this part.

No, I didn't. I pointed out the multiple places in the owners manual it explicitly states the definitions of those things in said manual only apply to people with enhanced autopilot or FSD

Since you have neither, those definitions don't apply to your situation.

Those features, as defined in the package you did actually buy, don't mention lane changing at all

 

[BrunoB]

Man I just read the manual and it's confusing at best as to what is AP is supposed to do.
https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/Model 3 Owners Manual.pdf

I really think that Tesla is doing a really poor job to define what is included in what.

Simple fix for that would simply be to add under the title of the feature in what package of AP, EAP or FSD it is included. This would take care of any confusion in a flash.

The other confusing thing is something like that:

These convenience features, designed to reduce driver workload, are available only if your Tesla vehicle is equipped with the optional Enhanced Autopilot or Full SelfDriving Capability packages:
• Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (see TrafficAware Cruise Control on page 67).
• Autosteer (see Autosteer on page 73)

These features are part of the new AP but it does not say so in the manual. Furthermore, the ALC is under the autosteer section.

Man this is confusing if you base your buying decision on the owner's manual you come up with more questions than answers

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

No, I agreed that section was only partly re-written, and they simply left some original, now out of date, info behind- the video. But it remains clearly labeled as only applying to the old package anyway.

That's pretty relevant.

We're done here.

Keep telling yourself that.

It doesn't matter "why" the information provided in that section misrepresents the package described in that section. It only matters the customers seeking information from the manufacturer are making purchasing decisions based (in part) on that misrepresentation.

No, I didn't. I pointed out the multiple places in the owners manual it explicitly states the definitions of those things in said manual only apply to people with enhanced autopilot or FSD

Since you have neither, those definitions don't apply to your situation.

Those features, as defined in the package you did actually buy, don't mention lane changing at all

I understand that's what you are saying. You are saying that:

1. EAP had TACC & AS
2. The feature sets of TACC & AS were well-documented in the Owners Manual
3. AP now has TACC & AS
4. Tesla changed the feature sets of TACC & AS, and sold them to the general public without clearly enumerating all of those changes first.

I'm saying that isn't cool.

 

[brobinson]

Yup. The basic Autopilot is not worth money. Too bad they dont have a return policy on it.

If you want similar features (with limited auto-steer) on a BMW 330i, you have to add a $1700 'professional driver assist' and $1600 'live cockpit pro' option.

To add the feature to a C class Mercedes (and to get other basic safety features already included in your Model 3), you have to add a $2250 driver assistance package, $2600 multimedia package, and a $1600 premium package.

Paying $2k for TACC and autosteer feels pretty good to me.

 

[K-D-R]

The other culprit is the lack of reference in the FSD upgrade specs to lane change. I love Tesla, but a 5th grader could have done a better job with describing this stuff to make it more clear for buyers.

 

[Knightshade]

Keep telling yourself that.

Pretty clearly, I'm not the one that needs to be told that

It doesn't matter "why" the information provided in that section misrepresents the package described in that section.

I mean, yes, legally, it literally does matter

It also matters that the video in question explicitly does not represent the package you bought

It says so [B}right at the start of the video[/B]

A fact you keep pretending you don't understand despite it being explained to you over and over.

It only matters the customers seeking information from the manufacturer are making purchasing decisions based (in part) on that misrepresentation.

And if the video claimed to be describing the new product you'd have an excellent basis for legal action.

It doesn't though. It explicitly claims it's describing enhanced autopilot.

Something you did not purchase but are mad you didn't get the features of.

I understand that's what you are saying.

You really don't.

It's kind of amazing how much you don't.

You are saying that:

1. EAP had TACC & AS

Nope.

I'm saying the manual specifically describes how TACC and AS work if you have EAP or FSD.

you can tell because the manual explicitly says that

That the features as described are only as described if you have EAP or FSD

The feature sets of TACC & AS were well-documented in the Owners Manual

only if you have EAP or FSD

This fact has been quoted to you repeatedly and agian you keep pretenidng you don't understand it.

AP now has TACC & AS

It has a different implementation of them. They are not the same under AP as they are under EAP.


Just as they were not the same AP1 versus how they work in EAP.

ATesla changed the feature sets of TACC & AS

Congrats on finally getting something correct!

, and sold them to the general public without clearly enumerating all of those changes first.
I'm saying that isn't cool.

If your suggestion is Tesla did a crap job at communicating... welcome to Tesla. They almost universally do a crap job at communicating.

It's one of the many ways they're an absolutely incompetent company, that just happens to make pretty awesome cars.


That doesn't change the fact there's nothing in any of their communications or documentation on the actual new-AP order page, or the owners manual, suggesting non enhanced AP gets lane changing.

Man I just read the manual and it's confusing at best as to what is AP is supposed to do.
https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/Model 3 Owners Manual.pdf

I really think that Tesla is doing a really poor job to define what is included in what.

Simple fix for that would simply be to add under the title of the feature in what package of AP, EAP or FSD it is included. This would take care of any confusion in a flash.

The other confusing thing is something like that:

These convenience features, designed to reduce driver workload, are available only if your Tesla vehicle is equipped with the optional Enhanced Autopilot or Full SelfDriving Capability packages:
• Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (see TrafficAware Cruise Control on page 67).
• Autosteer (see Autosteer on page 73)

These features are part of the new AP but it does not say so in the manual. Furthermore, the ALC is under the autosteer section.

Man this is confusing if you base your buying decision on the owner's manual you come up with more questions than answers

All of this is explained simply.


The manual you're reading was written before the new AP existed, and Tesla didn't bother to update the manual. At all.


That's absolutely crap on Teslas part- but since said manual repeatedly makes that fact clear by referencing enhanced autopilot it's equally crap to suggest that should have anything to do with what a new package gets you.

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

I mean, yes, legally, it literally does matter

It also matters that the video in question explicitly does not represent the package you bought

It says so [B}right at the start of the video[/B]

A fact you keep pretending you don't understand despite it being explained to you over and over.

Incorrect.

Not explicitly representing AP functions is not the same thing as explicitly not representing AP functions. You can grasp that, right? Explicitly stating that the demonstration applies to the EAP package is not an explicit statement that it does not apply to other packages. It's inclusion in the new AP section implicitly represents the new AP package unless it explicitly says that it does not, which it does not.

You really don't.

It's kind of amazing how much you don't.

1. EAP had TACC & AS

Nope.

I'm saying the manual specifically describes how TACC and AS work if you have EAP or FSD.

you can tell because the manual explicitly says that

That the features as described are only as described if you have EAP or FSD

How is that a nope? If the manual says that you get TACC & AS with EAP, then the answer to #1 is "yes".

2. The feature sets of TACC & AS were well-documented in the Owners Manual

only if you have EAP or FSD

This fact has been quoted to you repeatedly and agian you keep pretenidng you don't understand it.

Again, the statement wasn't about which packages included TACC & AP. The statement was that the feature sets of TACC & AP were well-documented. Yes or no?

3. AP now has TACC & AS

It has a different implementation of them. They are not the same under AP as they are under EAP.


Just as they were not the same AP1 versus how they work in EAP.

You're getting ahead of yourself. That's part of #4. But with respect to #3, The new AP package has a feature that Tesla calls Traffic Aware Cruise Control and another feature it calls Autosteer. Yes?

4. Tesla changed the feature sets of TACC & AS, and sold them to the general public without clearly enumerating all of those changes first.

Congrats on finally getting something correct!

If your suggestion is Tesla did a crap job at communicating... welcome to Tesla. They almost universally do a crap job at communicating.

It's one of the many ways they're an absolutely incompetent company, that just happens to make pretty awesome cars.

So, if you agree that Tesla was incompetent at communicating changes to their new offerings, and customers make purchasing decisions based on the incomplete or incorrect information provided by Tesla, why do you object to customers seeking a remedy?

That doesn't change the fact there's nothing in any of their communications or documentation on the actual new-AP order page, or the owners manual, suggesting non enhanced AP gets lane changing.

There's more than enough room for disagreement on that score.

 

[Knightshade]

Incorrect.

Nope.

Not explicitly representing AP functions is not the same thing as explicitly not representing AP functions. You can grasp that, right? Explicitly stating that the demonstration applies to the EAP package is not an explicit statement that it does not apply to other packages.

That makes 0 actual sense.

"Here's a video of what you get in Package A" is not telling you ANYTHING about what you get in something that is NOT package A.

It doesn't need to come with some insane troll logic dislclaimer saying "This video that is explicitly about Package A, that we TELL YOU AT THE START IS ABOUT PACKAGE A is shockingly not about package B that didn't even exist when we made the video


It'd be like you insisting that a commercial about Hawaii needs to add in huge red letters "DESPITE ALSO BEING AN ISLAND, THIS COMMERCIAL IS NOT ABOUT FIJI!"

That's nonsensical.

It's inclusion in the new AP section implicitly represents the new AP package unless it explicitly says that it does not, which it does not.

Except it does.

First, it's not "included" in the "new" section.

it's left over from the old one.

And second, it explicitly says it's about enhanced Autopilot.

As explained you to, what, 20 times now?

How is that a nope? If the manual says that you get TACC & AS with EAP, then the answer to #1 is "yes".

No, it's not.

The manual says you get the version of those described in the manual with EAP.

It makes a point of saying the features, as described in the manual, only come with EAP and FSD.

Multiple times.

So if you have something that is not EAP or FSD those descriptions of the features wouldn't apply to you.

Again, the statement wasn't about which packages included TACC & AP. The statement was that the feature sets of TACC & AP were well-documented. Yes or no?

The feautres included in TACC and AP only if you have EAP or FSD are well documented in the manual.

You have neither. The new AP package has neither.


Again as already, repeated, excruciatingly, explained to you.

You're getting ahead of yourself. That's part of #4. But with respect to #3, The new AP package has a feature that Tesla calls Traffic Aware Cruise Control and another feature it calls Autosteer. Yes?

Yup. But they are different (autosteer in particular) compared to the versions offered in old EAP and new FSD.


Just as- again- they are different from how those features worked in AP1.


This appears to be another on the increasingly long list of nuanced differences you seem unable to grasp.

So, if you agree that Tesla was incompetent at communicating changes to their new offerings, and customers make purchasing decisions based on the incomplete or incorrect information provided by Tesla, why do you object to customers seeking a remedy?

If you choose to buy something when you don't have enough info, that's on you.

Now, if you didn't do enough research to find the correct info, but you ask Tesla directly to clarify before purchase, and you're given incorrect info in writing (email, chat, etc), I'd absolutely support you asking for a remedy (the remedy would be a refund FYI- they're not going to make a special version of the software just for you that adds ALC to basic AP)

There's more than enough room for disagreement on that score.

You're certainly disagreeing, you're just objectively wrong about it- as proven to you over and over with direct quotes from the manual, the video, and every other relevant place, all showing the descriptions in question explicitly state they only apply to EAP and/or FSD.

 

[BrunoB]

Anyway, I have made my decision thanks to the info found here that AP is not worth it at 4k CAD, with the features included, but if I had pushed the button based on the info found of the website and the owner's manual I would probably be either pissed off or kicking myself for not doing enough research. I think that sometimes Tesla is confused itself on what is AP LOL!!!! Lesson learn always check teslamotorsclub before taking a decision

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

That makes 0 actual sense.

"Here's a video of what you get in Package A" is not telling you ANYTHING about what you get in something that is NOT package A.

It doesn't need to come with some insane troll logic dislclaimer saying "This video that is explicitly about Package A, that we TELL YOU AT THE START IS ABOUT PACKAGE A is shockingly not about package B that didn't even exist when we made the video

If the video stood on its own, I would agree with you. However, it is being presented as part of the description of package B. As such, any deviations between the contents of the video and the actual capabilities of package B need to be explicitly declared.

It'd be like you insisting that a commercial about Hawaii needs to add in huge red letters "DESPITE ALSO BEING AN ISLAND, THIS COMMERCIAL IS NOT ABOUT FIJI!"

If they use footage of Fiji in a commercial about Hawaii, they absolutely need to include disclaimers to that affect. Small white letters will suffice.

Unlike your example, the features shown in the Tesla video can be in two places at the same time. A stretch of beach featured in that commercial could only be on Fiji OR Hawaii, so it would be less critical to explain that it did not exist in both places. However, the features in video portion of the Autopilot section absolutely can be in both packages simultaneously. Some of them clearly are. It is particularly critical to explicitly disclose any dissimilarities between the features of the video and the features of package.

That's nonsensical.

I'm sorry you think so. Where did I lose you?

• You claimed that the video explicitly does not apply to the new package. That is not an accurate statement
• The video does not explicitly apply to the new package. This is an accurate statement.
• The video, in and of itself, makes no reference to the new package.
• The "presence" of the video in the section dedicated to the new Autopilot package implicitly applies the information shown in the video to that package. Unless there is an explicit disclaimer to the contrary.
• There is not explicit disclaimer

Except it does.

First, it's not "included" in the "new" section.

It is inarguably included in the recently-updated section dedicated to the new package. If you go to that section, there it is.

it's left over from the old one.

The section was updated by the Tesla to reflect the change.

And second, it explicitly says it's about enhanced Autopilot.

Which is not the same thing as explicitly saying that it is not include in other packages, particularly other packaged it is being used to advertise.

As explained you to, what, 20 times now?

You've definitely repeated that claim.

No, it's not.

The manual says you get the version of those described in the manual with EAP.

It makes a point of saying the features, as described in the manual, only come with EAP and FSD.

Multiple times.

So if you have something that is not EAP or FSD those descriptions of the features wouldn't apply to you.

So your answer to whether EAP & FSD had TACC & AS is "No". Umm, fine.

The feautres included in TACC and AP only if you have EAP or FSD are well documented in the manual.

You have neither. The new AP package has neither.

Again as already, repeated, excruciatingly, explained to you.

According to the text of the recently updated Autopilot section, I do have those features:

If configured on your car, your Model 3 will indicate that Traffic-Aware Cruise Control and Autosteer are available by presenting a gray steering wheel and speed dial icon below your speedometer.

I can confirm that my Autopilot package does present the icons, as described above. Therefore, TACC & AS are configured in my car, based on my purchase of the Autopilot package.

Yup. But they are different (autosteer in particular) compared to the versions offered in old EAP and new FSD.


Just as- again- they are different from how those features worked in AP1.


This appears to be another on the increasingly long list of nuanced differences you seem unable to grasp.

Nuanced differences are always easier to grasp when the manufacturer enumerates them before implementing them.

If you choose to buy something when you don't have enough info, that's on you.

Now, if you didn't do enough research to find the correct info, but you ask Tesla directly to clarify before purchase, and you're given incorrect info in writing (email, chat, etc), I'd absolutely support you asking for a remedy (the remedy would be a refund FYI- they're not going to make a special version of the software just for you that adds ALC to basic AP).

The manufacturer's website should be the only source of research required to find the correct information. If the information contained in that website is not correct, then the manufacturer should offer a remedy

FTR, you can see from my earlier posts that I have already asked for a refund. It was denied. I alternatively asked to receive the features as shown on their support page, and that too was denied.

You're certainly disagreeing, you're just objectively wrong about it- as proven to you over and over with direct quotes from the manual, the video, and every other relevant place, all showing the descriptions in question explicitly state they only apply to EAP and/or FSD.

You are confusing repetition with proof

 

[Knightshade]

If the video stood on its own, I would agree with you. However, it is being presented as part of the description of package B

Except, it's not.

You can tell because it explicitly says package A at the start of the video.

As shown to you.

With screenshots.

With ENHANCED circled in red.

If they use footage of Fiji in a commercial about Hawaii, they absolutely need to include disclaimers to that affect. Small white letters will suffice.

You mean like how the video tells you its about enhanced autopilot in big letters right at the start?

I'm sorry you think so. Where did I lose you?

• You claimed that the video explicitly does not apply to the new package. That is not an accurate statement

Except, it is.

You can tell because it explicitly says Enhanced at the start of the video.

As shown to you.

With screenshots.

With ENHANCED circled in red.

It is inarguably included in the recently-updated section dedicated to the new package. If you go to that section, there it is.

You appear to not understand the difference between "Included" and "left over"

Tesla had an autopilot page.

They updated PART of it. They failed to update another part of it.

The video is something they failed to update. So it reflects the old content.

You can tell because it explicitly says Enhanced at the start of the video.

As shown to you.

With screenshots.

With ENHANCED circled in red.

So your answer to whether EAP & FSD had TACC & AS is "No". Umm, fine.

Also wrong.

I said they have a specific version of those things. The features of which are described in the current owners manual.

Which explicitly tells you the versions of them only apply to EAP and FSD

Which you didn't buy.

According to the text of the recently updated Autopilot section, I do have those features

Except you don't.

You can tell because the manual explicitly says that feature set only comes with EAP or FSD

What you have is a smaller set of features sold in a different package containing a different version of autosteer.

Another way to tell is your lack of ALC.

You are confusing repetition with proof

No... you are confusing denial with counter-proof.

I keep showing you screen shots with your errors circled in red, and direct quotes from the owners manual showing your errors in bold.

You keep going "nu uh!"

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

Except, it is.

You can tell because it explicitly says Enhanced at the start of the video.

FTR I am not, and never was, ignoring or denying that the video explicitly refers to EAP. It does. It always has. It just isn't the slam dunk that you seem to think it is.

I am also not denying that the video does not explicitly refer to any other package. But by definition, it cannot explicitly not apply to any other package unless it actually states that it doesn't. I will go so far as to say that in a vacuum, without any other context, it would implicitly not, apply to any other package.

However, it is not being presented in a vacuum. It is being presented in a section of Tesla's website dedicated to the explain the features of Tesla's new Autopilot package. In that context, the content of that video implicitly applies to the package described in that section, unless they explicitly state that they don't. They don't.

You appear to not understand the difference between "Included" and "left over"

"Left over" is a subset of "included". As are "left in", "added" , "edited" and "reworded". That section has been updated recently to reflect the new package. Whatever combination of actions or inactions led to the video being part of updated section, it is undeniably "included" in it. As such it is information that Tesla is currently broadcasting to the world about the new package.

Except you don't.

You can tell because the manual explicitly says that feature set only comes with EAP or FSD

well then how do explain that the text in the autopilot section that says if I have those icons, then I have those features? I have those icons. That section is more current than the manual, after all.

 

[CharlieFoxtrot]

You mean like how the video tells you its about enhanced autopilot in big letters right at the start?

No, much more explicit.

To use your example: Say you wanted promote a new resort that you are building in Hawaii, and want to place footage of your existing Fiji resort in the Hawaii section of your page to generate interest. Even if the beginning of the video clearly says Fiji, you had better make damned sure that whatever amenities are featured in that video are going to be included in the Hawaiian resort. If the video shows a day spa, Hawaii better be getting a day spa. If the video shows a swim up bar. Hawaii needs a swim up bar too. Horseback riding on the beach? Same deal.

Even then you would be wise to add an explicit disclaimer that amenities may vary from resort to resort.

 

[wrf2e]

No, much more explicit.

To use your example: Say you wanted promote a new resort that you are building in Hawaii, and want to place footage of your existing Fiji resort in the Hawaii section of your page to generate interest. Even if the beginning of the video clearly says Fiji, you had better make damned sure that whatever amenities are featured in that video are going to be included in the Hawaiian resort. If the video shows a day spa, Hawaii better be getting a day spa. If the video shows a swim up bar. Hawaii needs a swim up bar too. Horseback riding on the beach? Same deal.

Even then you would be wise to add an explicit disclaimer that amenities may vary from resort to resort.

For the win! I can’t believe how long this argument has gone on, but to a regular person going to buy a Tesla without the obsession that those of us here have, they could very easily believe that lane change is included with Autopilot. For one, how would they know that Enhanced Autopilot is anything different. Enhanced isn’t available for purchase anywhere.

That video shouldn’t be on the Autopilot page. If they insist on leaving it there, it needs to make clear that some of the features presented aren’t available in Autopilot. Just putting Enhanced at the beginning doesn’t make it clear to a new customer.

 

[Mdoss]

OK, I think we've beat this subject to death, and we all agree that Tesla does have out-of-date stuff on their website.
But I was reading on the Tesla website about the changes of Software Version 9.0 and saw these little gems...

So just go to Tesla.com, click on Support, then click on Discover Software Version 9.

It sure makes it sound like Auto Lane Change is part of Autosteer. Maybe it will be a standard part of AutoSteer soon?!!

 

[BrunoB]

Hope so it will change my decision to get the AP