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Banning Shorts

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My opinion diverges. I think bans take sometimes too long to happen, there are many members, specially new ones that come here just to spread misinformation. And the same lies or twist keep on repeating and being debunked in the investors threads. And this members keep on getting downvoted, to the point of being ignored by most, but nothing is done, they keep on manipulating the narrative to suit their thesis and proclaiming lies as facts.

I don't have any problem with opposing opinions, and I think that can be useful since it brings discussion to the forums, but those members that you are defending as shorts are just FUD spreaders, they go in circles in order not to address any of the points that are refuted and they keep their discussions one sided since they do not care about their arguments being debunked.

Well this is part of a very unfortunate trend in public discourse where tribalism trumps (no pun intended) facts or any basis of reality. The FUD spreaders harm everyone, because when a rational voice comes along and says, 'hey you know Tesla is an amazing company with an amazing vision, but the odds of long term success are miniscule and here's why...' it gets dismissed along with the idiotic comments.

As the same time, when a rational voice says 'hey Tesla is a company with many issues, not least chronic organizational dysfunction, but it's hugely disruptive and could be the largest car company in the world within 20 years', that comment gets dismissed as fanboyism.

Here's the line... never EVER invest with your emotions. If you love Tesla, adore Musk, and feel anxious when either are criticized, you absolutely should not invest in TSLA. ;)
 
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IMHO... Short sellers are the very definition of evil. This applies to every short seller who is betting on any company to fail... How in the world do you sleep at night knowing you're actively participating in trying to kill a company that employs people who have mortgages and families to feed? That statement isn't exclusive to Tesla either...

TMC is one of the most flexible and accommodating enthusiast forums I'm a member of and there are a number of people who post here regularly with negative perspectives on Elon/Tesla that would be quickly silenced on other forums. To suggest TMC has it out for short sellers is laughable at best...

Here's an idea shorts, instead of trying to force a company to fail and harm the employees that depend on that company for their livelihoods, how about you just don't invest in that company at all? Why would that be so difficult for you to do?

Just my two cents...

Jeff
 
With all due respect, that's nonsense if this forum wants to have a area for honestly discussing investing. Otherwise you might as well just say "buy all the stock you can afford and hold on to it forever".

It's very Unfortunately that Tesla is becoming one of those companies that you can't have an honest conversation about (a bit like Apple during the Jobs years). After Tesla announced their last monthly production numbers there was a post on Ars Technica about it saying the market has responded positively (because the price jumped during overnight trading on TINY volumes). I made a post that said the market was actually not impressed and the price would fall during the week (I work in Finance, specifically in Risk). Guess what? 106 downvotes (about 13 up) and my post got hidden.

Over the next 3 days the stock price feel from $348 to $300, or over 15%. Now considering that unwinding shorts usually pushes the price up (and there were a lot of shorts at the end of June) that's really not a good performance. The point is, fanboyism drowned out a view that was valid, and anyone buying at $350 trying to make some quick cash would have been burned.

Now, fundamentally I see Tesla as a very good long term investment - I even said that in my Ars post, but people just jumped on me saying it would fall last week and ignored good advice.

People's mad love with Tesla is actually quite disturbing on a fundamental level. They're a great company doing something truly amazing, but when it comes to your finances and future, don't make those decisions with your teenage brain. I think an open and honest debate about investing in TSLA is critical, otherwise it should not be debated at all.
Would you mind participating on the market action thread? We could use your voice there. We had a couple of people warning others that the stock may actually drop after the deliveries news, but most were extremely bullish with congratulations being expressed to fellow Longs. It would have been nice to have your perspective there.
 
The investor section is pretty much moderator hell. Hats off to the volunteers who manage this section!
Sure, it has lots of posts everyday, I'm not saying it is easy, but is still has room to improve when it comes to misinformation spread by the same members over and over.
If there was some way to flag an user by the number or proportion of disagrees it gets in every post, or by the number of users that are ignoring him, that would be a great help to keep users that are not contributing away from the forums.
 
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Mod: the quoted text moved to Snippiness, kept this reasonable response. --ggr

It sounds to me more like these are viewpoints. My question is why are you sharing? You think your view is better than mine? I've been watching Tesla since 2006. How about you? Back then, many like you were predicting doom and demise, just like now, but after a dozen years, Tesla is pumping out cars (made in a sprung structure, yes, as if that makes any difference), cut their excess work force, and are refining the Semi and Solar roof. Top talent is being replaced as they move on. Nothing to see here.

Anyone can quote fact as FUD.
 
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I'm about to leave. It's clear this forum doesn't like critical questions or perspectives.

*SNIPPED OUT USELSS TEXT"

Tesla has a f***ing horrible cash position and an absurd valuation by any traditional measurement.

They are in trouble, but anyone who states that is shunned and alienated.

Moody's, Wall St, and even bullish investors like Ark Capital all agree that Tesla must raise 2B this year. They've been saying that since March. But this forum knows better because the Allmighty Elon said they won't raise?

Tesla is building cars in a tent. They have huge supply chain problems with their parts and services. They're delivering cars at a rate far below expectations. They fired 9% of their workforce. Their most promising products, like the Semi and Solar Roof, are years away from scaling production. They're losing top talent.

These are facts, not FUD.

But I'm ignored and ridiculed for stating these facts?

Start banning people for being rude to the shorts, and maybe you'll see a better discussion.

For now, this forum seems like a long echo chamber, perilously close to groupthink.

Don't let the door hit you... It's not that this forum doesn't like critical questions, or doesn't have posters critical of Tesla and/or Elon, it's that people like you demand we see things from your point of view and if we don't we become "perilously close to groupthink"...

Your facts are not facts, their opinions built from a certain anti-Tesla perspective and are worth as much as any other opinion out there...

Why would TMC ban people who are rude to shorts? Shorts get what they deserve... You're literally WANTING a company to FAIL... Do you want to pay the mortgages of all of those thousands of employees if you succeed or are you just content with smugly fulfilling your own prophecy?

I wish TMC was perilously close to groupthink but I can assure you it isn't...

Jeff
 
Short sellers are not investors. There's a difference. Or more specifically, selling a stock short is not truly investing in that stock or the company. It is simply betting on failure. I agree that both sides of the argument should be heard here, although I personally find people betting against a company like Tesla to be a special kind of stupid. But that's just my opinion, as an investor.
 
Yeah, I guess if this is a "rude to shorts" forum, then you should rename the forum to "Tesla Bulls Echo Chamber" instead of "Investor discussions"

You're literally betting a company will fail... How do you sleep at night? That's what I want to know. How do you live with the reality that you're betting on 10s of THOUSANDS of people losing their jobs???

I'm going to keep asking you this until you answer since you seem to be so confident and smug in your misplaced and worthless opinions that it only seems fair you comment on how your behavior affects real, actual people and not some number on a spreadsheet...

Jeff
 
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You're literally betting a company will fail... How do you sleep at night? That's what I want to know. How do you live with the reality that you're betting on 10s of THOUSANDS of people losing their jobs???

Because I'm not the cause of that. I'm not going out and burning down a Tesla factory, am I?

That's the Skilling argument all over again. The shorts didn't cause Enron to fail - Skilling and Lay did.

It's not my fault that Tesla fails, and it's not ethically wrong for me to profit from it if it does.

I think it's sad that 1000s of people have already lost their jobs (9% of 30,000, right?)
 
Because I'm not the cause of that. I'm not going out and burning down a Tesla factory, am I?

That's the Skilling argument all over again. The shorts didn't cause Enron to fail - Skilling and Lay did.

It's not my fault that Tesla fails, and it's not ethically wrong for me to profit from it if it does.

I think it's sad that 1000s of people have already lost their jobs (9% of 30,000, right?)

Wow... Just wow... Your actions, and the actions of others like you, very well could lead to a collapse of the share price and thus the collapse of the company costing 10s of thousands of people their jobs and all you can do is sit here and point fingers claiming "it's not my fault"...??? Just wow...

The 9% that were cut is bad enough but people like you won't be happy until all employees are out of work... Yet you sit here and claim that it's not ethically wrong for you to profit off of it? It's not only ethically wrong, it's morally bankrupt...

Again, just wow...

Jeff
 
How? How does a collapse of the share price cause the collapse of the company?

From my perspective, the collapse of the company causes the collapse of the share price.

The share price is supposed to represent the value of the company.

If I have to explain this to you then you're either willfully ignorant or intentionally obtuse and judging by your posts to date, I'm honestly not sure if it's one or the other or both... I'm leaning towards both...

Jeff
 
If I have to explain this to you then you're either willfully ignorant or intentionally obtuse and judging by your posts to date, I'm honestly not sure if it's one or the other or both... I'm leaning towards both...

Well, I'd appreciate an explanation.

My understanding of how capitalism works:
  • Company issues shares to get money. Competitive market determines the value of those initial shares.
  • Competitive capital markets trade those shares.
  • If the company's value rises, the share price rises.
  • If the company's value falls, the share price falls.
So, how does a declining share price cause a company's failure?

Let's say Tesla's share price drops to $230 tomorrow. How does that cause them to go bankrupt?
 
The share price is supposed to represent the value of the company.
It does when people do not borrow shares, sell them in in huge blocks hoping they will be able to buy them back at lower price.
When people borrow shares, sell them in in huge blocks hoping they will be able to buy them back at lower price it does not.
 
Well, I'd appreciate an explanation.

My understanding of how capitalism works:
  • Company issues shares to get money. Competitive market determines the value of those initial shares.
  • Competitive capital markets trade those shares.
  • If the company's value rises, the share price rises.
  • If the company's value falls, the share price falls.
So, how does a declining share price cause a company's failure?

Let's say Tesla's share price drops to $230 tomorrow. How does that cause them to go bankrupt?

Not going to play this game with you. I'm now convinced you're both obtuse and willfully ignorant...

Jeff
 
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Well it works the other way. Tesla opening configuration for all reservation holders fed a bunch of call options and a price spike before the month end. However it did not represent anything which is why the price crashed back down below where it was before that happened.

Sudden changes in equity prices rarely have anything to do with fundamentals. It’s quite hard for an individual company to shock the market in the absence of an M&A or some huge drop in revenue that was unforeseen. That’s not going to happen with Tesla for years, if at all.

Bonds however are a different story. Prince changes in bonds (int he absence of a base rate change) ALWAYS are to do with fundamentals. Rather than discussing TSLA, this forum might want to spend some time looking at Tesla’s bond prices (hint they’re falling).

Good point. Where do you follow Tesla's bond prices?