Battery Degradation (again)

[sunstealer]

So I've been trying to find an answer to a question I have regarding the battery conditions of Teslas cars, but strangely it's been eluding me so far.

There is a lot of data about the degradation of the battery packs as measured using the on-board system diagnostics included in the car from production.
What seems to be lacking however, is to see some people reporting their findings if they measure the consumption/range of their used cars without relying solely on the built-in Tesla-designed software.

I believe that even if used Teslas are able to charge their batteries up to 100% and get within 5-10% of what their original range was supposed to be, there is still the possibility that their used battery will deplete a lot faster than what is did when new (and this is not being accurately reflected in the on-board estimates).

It would be very interesting to get some data from people who drive 50,000+ miles used Teslas telling how far they can get from say 80% charge -> 30%. Information from the on-board estimate (remaining range at 80% - remaining range at 30%) as well as real-world miles travelled.

Anyone up for that challenge?

 

[BobbyKings]

My 2015 S85D with 140000 kilometers on the odometer still does well over 410 real life real kilometers on a full charge. 100% - 0%.

Just tested myself last week in Europe.

 

[thegruf]

there is a whole section of the forum dedicated to battery discussion

Battery Discussion

there is also some good data charted here
Tesla Model S battery degradation data

pehaps try there, and maybe this thread would be better moved to that forum section.

 

[sunstealer]

Sorry, this was my first post on this forum. I didn't realise there was a dedicated "Battery Discussion". If a moderator could move this thread there it would be great.

 

[sunstealer]

Thanks for the reply BobbyKings. Seems like your car is still performing exceptionally well then. I just have a bit of hard time shaking some doubts I have about the battery claims seeming "too good to be true". Especially when compared to every other producer of all things electronic. Seems like Tesla is in a league of it's own with their batteries. It seems a little odd to me, considering they're all using very comparable technology.

 

[tstafford]

Thanks for the reply BobbyKings. Seems like your car is still performing exceptionally well then. I just have a bit of hard time shaking some doubts I have about the battery claims seeming "too good to be true". Especially when compared to every other producer of all things electronic. Seems like Tesla is in a league of it's own with their batteries. It seems a little odd to me, considering they're all using very comparable technology.

I understand your concern what with things like the iPhone/iPad that degrade really quickly.

What I can tell you is that I've noticed no appreciable degradation in my three years of ownership. Unless the battery hits a cliff at some point, I don't think it would be an issue during the normal lifespan of a car. My bet is the interior and whatnot will wear out to the point where the car is ready for the crusher before the battery is toast.

 

[BobbyKings]

Thanks for the reply BobbyKings. Seems like your car is still performing exceptionally well then. I just have a bit of hard time shaking some doubts I have about the battery claims seeming "too good to be true". Especially when compared to every other producer of all things electronic. Seems like Tesla is in a league of it's own with their batteries. It seems a little odd to me, considering they're all using very comparable technology.

I am positively surprised as well. I do charge usually up to 90%, drive a bit over 40000 km/year (25000miles/year) and do not spare the car. It has been out on the autobahn full throttle (for a few miles only), it has been high in the alps during winter, it is always parked outside and it gets occasional SuperCharging (once per month on average). Once every 3-4 months I do a full 100%-0% cycle and I do drive it a few miles/kms beyond zero.

It does indeed hold up very well. I think the Battery Management System ("BMS") plays a crucial role. Keeping temperatures and charging speeds at bay.

And that is what many other electronic products are lacking. Even the early Nissan Leafs were missing a solid BMS and they did suffer serious degradation indeed.

Maybe I'm lucky, but I do think Tesla is doing really well when it comes to BMS and battery life. FWIW.

 

[Mucall]

I have a 2013 85 Model S. From November 2017 to July 2018 90% charge went from 232 to 227. Just in case this is help. The service center told me the battery looks healthy and normal.

 

[brianman]

I have a 2013 85 Model S. From November 2017 to July 2018 90% charge went from 232 to 227. Just in case this is help. The service center told me the battery looks healthy and normal.

Just another data point...
My 2012 P85 (delivered in November) is reporting 227-228 mi. at 90% charge. It's never been 100% charged, but has been near and under zero several times (~ half a dozen).

227 mi @ 90% would linearly scale to 252 mi. The official rating was 265 mi at purchase, corresponding to 238.5 mi. at 90%. Sometimes when new firmware arrived 239 mi. (the "default" value) would show at 90% SOC, with the 227-230 mi. value showing after 1-3 charges (gather data from the actual battery).

 

[ZBB]

Brian -
Ho many miles are on your Sig these days?

My '13 S60 was delivered on June 4, 2013 and now has just over 91k miles on it. I typically drive ~1100 miles per month for commuting, with the rest of the miles being road trips (we've done 5-6 "big" trips between 1500-4500 miles each, plus some 1-2 shorter trips per year). I usually charge to 90% during commuting, but will charge to 100% at the start of a road trip, and will charge to ~95% or so for certain legs when on road trips.

When new, a 100% charge was 208 miles. 100% charge is now 186-187 miles, so I'm seeing slightly over 10% degradation. Over the first 2 years, a 100% charge dropped to 198-199, the following 2 years it dropped to 190-192, and in the last year or so, its lost another ~5 miles. Pretty even so far.

 

[brianman]

How many miles are on your Sig these days?

Tess is @ 47155 miles. She's mostly in the garage these days, since I mostly drive Illyria (and Mercury before that).

IIRC, Mercury had ~39k miles when I traded her in.

Illyria is @ 20,484 miles.

 

[Evoforce]

I am positively surprised as well. I do charge usually up to 90%, drive a bit over 40000 km/year (25000miles/year) and do not spare the car. It has been out on the autobahn full throttle (for a few miles only), it has been high in the alps during winter, it is always parked outside and it gets occasional SuperCharging (once per month on average). Once every 3-4 months I do a full 100%-0% cycle and I do drive it a few miles/kms beyond zero.

It does indeed hold up very well. I think the Battery Management System ("BMS") plays a crucial role. Keeping temperatures and charging speeds at bay.

And that is what many other electronic products are lacking. Even the early Nissan Leafs were missing a solid BMS and they did suffer serious degradation indeed.

Maybe I'm lucky, but I do think Tesla is doing really well when it comes to BMS and battery life. FWIW.

Nissan Leaf still doesn't have liquid TMS. Maybe 2019 looks like it will be their first.

 

[Ali’sMax]

Brian -
Ho many miles are on your Sig these days?

My '13 S60 was delivered on June 4, 2013 and now has just over 91k miles on it. I typically drive ~1100 miles per month for commuting, with the rest of the miles being road trips (we've done 5-6 "big" trips between 1500-4500 miles each, plus some 1-2 shorter trips per year). I usually charge to 90% during commuting, but will charge to 100% at the start of a road trip, and will charge to ~95% or so for certain legs when on road trips.

When new, a 100% charge was 208 miles. 100% charge is now 186-187 miles, so I'm seeing slightly over 10% degradation. Over the first 2 years, a 100% charge dropped to 198-199, the following 2 years it dropped to 190-192, and in the last year or so, its lost another ~5 miles. Pretty even so far.

I have a 17X100D, new car at 100% is 295 but in just 6months 10,000miles later my 100% is 288...3%degradation
I do weekly long trip so I do charge it 100% for the trip but never drop below 20% when get to my destination.
Do you think I can save some battery degradation if I charge to 90% instead of 100% for the trip?
During the week I charge to 80%

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Thanks for the reply BobbyKings. Seems like your car is still performing exceptionally well then. I just have a bit of hard time shaking some doubts I have about the battery claims seeming "too good to be true". Especially when compared to every other producer of all things electronic. Seems like Tesla is in a league of it's own with their batteries. It seems a little odd to me, considering they're all using very comparable technology.

One note here is that most people charge their other electronics(phones, etc) to 100% every day and there's little room for cooling the battery in ever-slimmer devices. By comparison, a Model 3/S/X only really needs to be charged to ~70-80% and only once every few days most of the time, and they have ample room for good cooling(and take advantage of that)

 

[unbelievable]

Once every 3-4 months I do a full 100%-0% cycle and I do drive it a few miles/kms beyond zero.

Would you mind sharing how you do this?

 

[tstafford]

I have a 17X100D, new car at 100% is 295 but in just 6months 10,000miles later my 100% is 288...3%degradation
I do weekly long trip so I do charge it 100% for the trip but never drop below 20% when get to my destination.
Do you think I can save some battery degradation if I charge to 90% instead of 100% for the trip?
During the week I charge to 80%

Quite possibly, but is it worth it?

Battery degradation was a legit concern in 2012 when we had no real world examples. I don't see people complaining that their battery is now only charging to 50%, 75% or whatever of it's original capacity. Seems like very marginal decreases - so small that you may as well not worry about it and just enjoy the car however is most convenient for you.

 

[BobbyKings]

Would you mind sharing how you do this?

Roundtrip to my parents is close to max range. I charge 100% prior to visiting them. On the way back I put the energy app on the screen and aim for 1%-2% on arrival at home. Close to home I make some detours to arrive at 0%. Plus some rounds around the block.

Don't push the pedal to the metal as it might just switch off. And I don't do this in the winter.