Standard non-poly Li-ion cells are to be discharged at 2C, at the maximum. I know that Tesla has said they are discharging their Panasonic batteries at 3C, which provides 50% more power to the motor. I don't think Panasonic approves that, but then there is no recourse to Panasonic. The new 2170 cells may indeed be rated at a higher discharge rate such as 2.5C. Or even 3C. Still not enough power. You need to go to 4C and certainly get the higher range 310 mi model to get to the 4 second range, I believe. So here is the deal -- if you buy a T3 310 mi Ludicrous, you get a beefier inverter to allow for let's say 4C discharge - with the caveat that the warranty on the battery is reduced, or that excessive high discharge will void the warranty. So the T3 310 mi at 4C will offer 300 kW of power, or 400 HP. This may offer 4 second 0-60.
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Standard non-poly Li-ion cells are to be discharged at 2C, at the maximum. I know that Tesla has said they are discharging their Panasonic batteries at 3C, which provides 50% more power to the motor. I don't think Panasonic approves that, but then there is no recourse to Panasonic. The new 2170 cells may indeed be rated at a higher discharge rate such as 2.5C. Or even 3C. Still not enough power. You need to go to 4C and certainly get the higher range 310 mi model to get to the 4 second range, I believe. So here is the deal -- if you buy a T3 310 mi Ludicrous, you get a beefier inverter to allow for let's say 4C discharge - with the caveat that the warranty on the battery is reduced, or that excessive high discharge will void the warranty. So the T3 310 mi at 4C will offer 300 kW of power, or 400 HP. This may offer 4 second 0-60.
What are you talking about? Maybe you should go look at some battery cell data sheets. P100D max discharge is just under 580 kW, or near 6C. The Volt's pack can handle 20C.
alseTrick
Active Member
75 mph is NORMAL highway driving in the US. Period. You are wrong to argue otherwise.
The Bolt is a joke It is not meant for mass production and it is just to steal the show.
Maybe you need to check some tech sheets, despite your moniker. The Volt uses a LiPoly (lithium-ion polymer) battery. LiPoly have very high discharge rates. But Tesla does not use LiPoly. Take a look at the Panasonic cell. It says right there in big print - maximum discharge rate is 2C. Now, Tesla has said they receive an "automotive version" of the cell, so I guess by that they mean they are taking a 2C cell and pushing it to 3C.
Discharging this cell at 5.8 C has consequences. I am sure in the fine print of the Ludicrous, you will find that the battery warranty is worded differently. And I am sure the BMS will limit the Ludicrous discharging at that rate to a short period and only if the battery is cool enough, and only if you don't abuse it too often. It will certainly not be telling you when it is throttling back.
If Tesla has managed to rate the 2170 at 4C or more, that is earth shaking news and they would be telling us.
Maybe you need to check some tech sheets, despite your moniker. The Volt uses a LiPoly (lithium-ion polymer) battery. LiPoly have very high discharge rates. But Tesla does not use LiPoly. Take a look at the Panasonic cell. It says right there in big print - maximum discharge rate is 2C. Now, Tesla has said they receive an "automotive version" of the cell, so I guess by that they mean they are taking a 2C cell and pushing it to 3C.
Discharging this cell at 5.8 C has consequences. I am sure in the fine print of the Ludicrous, you will find that the battery warranty is worded differently. And I am sure the BMS will limit the Ludicrous discharging at that rate to a short period and only if the battery is cool enough, and only if you don't abuse it too often. It will certainly not be telling you when it is throttling back.
If Tesla has managed to rate the 2170 at 4C or more, that is earth shaking news and they would be telling us.
I'm not sure what car you own but both my ICE vehicles can outdo their EPA rating cruising the highway at 75mpg-I have a Camry and a Passat and both easily exceed the EPA rating. What cars are you driving that struggle with the EPA highway rating?
That's with the AC going too in the summer and heat in the winter.
Batteries look like 60kw for standard 85kw for long range, $9K for an extra 25kw is a good deal.
Charge rate on standard says 30 miles @ 32A * 240v = 7.68kwh.
7680wh / 30 miles = 256 wh /mi
256wh * 220 miles = 56.32kw usable + reserve = 60kw actual
Charge rate on standard says 37 miles @ 40A * 240v = 9.6kwh
9600wh / 37 miles = 259 wh / mi
259wh * 310 miles = 80.3kw usable + reserve = 85kw actual.
** There will some charging losses so these are probably worst case in terms of wh/mi efficiency.
Charge rate on standard says 30 miles @ 32A * 240v = 7.68kwh.
7680wh / 30 miles = 256 wh /mi
256wh * 220 miles = 56.32kw usable + reserve = 60kw actual
Charge rate on standard says 37 miles @ 40A * 240v = 9.6kwh
9600wh / 37 miles = 259 wh / mi
259wh * 310 miles = 80.3kw usable + reserve = 85kw actual.
** There will some charging losses so these are probably worst case in terms of wh/mi efficiency.
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Ah, no. It doesn't say the maximum discharge rate is 2C. My 2013 P85 discharges at 350 kW which is 4.3 C. Go look at the battery degradation data for Tesla vehicles, like in Plug In America's survey... Tesla battery Model S battery packs hold up just fine. Tesla's power electronics limits the pulse discharge length... and vehicles don't sustain 4.3 C for very long. BTW, the original Volt isn't lithium polymer, it's LMO in a pouch cell.
Getting less range out of the same size battery as Bolt would explain why they don't quote these figures anymore!
skitown
Member
No, it's likely ~53 kWh usable versus ~59 kWh usable in the Bolt. Motor Trend estimates MPGe at 110 for highway which is the same as the Bolt. Note that the highway MPGe is based on 48 mph average speed with a lot of start stop still. With a much lower Cd, and roughly equivalent frontal area, the drag area is much smaller so high speed range is going to be pretty good in the Model 3... meaning the range at 75-80 mph is going to be much better than the Bolt even with a smaller usable battery capacity.
Don't forget charging losses up to 10%. 237wh/mile is what Tesla uses and is coherent with earlier explicit statement that 75kWh battery is max for the Model 3 frame.
Yeah the numbers are assuming the not-possible 100% efficiency, so the packs would be smaller.
I live in Seattle. Commute-time the normal speed on highway is around 10-15mpg. What I would give for FSD so I could take extra one hour nap while commuting...
I say apple, and you hear orange. The 2C figure is for the consumer version of the Panasonic NCR 'B' battery. And as I have said above, Tesla says they get a custom "automotive" version of the battery, which obviously means higher power. The reason the Tesla holds up just fine on the average is that only a few people will drive their Tesla on the average at 3C or more. The average driver going at 70 mph is draining at about 25 kW to 30 kW. That is 1/8C! How often do you drive your P85 at 4.3C? Only when you are racing. So why should the survey data show that the pack is not holding up? Even if rated at 2C or 3C? The average driver rarely hits 2C and probably never 3C during normal driving.
The Volt battery may not be a polymer cell, but the fact that it is a flat pouch cell means that a cell can have a high C rate because of a large surface area which can be cooled. The Leaf pouch cell is rated at 7C. The Volt has active cooling while the Leaf does not have active cooling. The 2170 has even less unit surface area than a 18650 (per unit energy) and thus should be rated lower, for the same construction and chemistry.
Is this 237 Wh/mi official figure for the model S? Then it should be maybe 210 Wh/mi for the T3?
120kg extra for ~22kWh seems like quite a bit. The outer pack is included in the standard car. Mostly cells are added to make it a long range car. Very maybe 2 or 3 modules. Actually with such a big difference with "the most energy dense cells on the market" I am inclined to think the standard car will have for instance 5 full modules or 6 partly full, 2 modules left out, and the long range 8 more or less modules.
1730kg for the long range (say 75kWh) is only 13% lower than Model S75. TBH, I expected a bit heavier, 3 being so cost focused.
I hate to even argue this but your wrong. 75 is about perfect to test any car for efficiency and in *time* I will be wrong. But now I drive 75 almost EVERYWHERE.
At the official rate of 237 Wh/mi (is this for the T3?) for the base model 3 I get a battery pack of 96x43 cells, each cell 3.4 Ah (i.e. a Panasonic 18650 or a 'low-capacity' 2170). This gives a storage capacity of 51 kWh, and a capacity of 54 kWh when 6% top and bottom buffers are included. It is interesting to note that the TS100D is a 96x86 architecture, i.e. exactly double the number of cells of the T3SR.
The T3LR comes out at 96x43 cells for a storage capacity of 73 kWh and 78 kWh respectively (average is about 75 kWh). Each cell is 4.9 Ah, which is probably what a 'standard capacity' 2170 is.
In the longer term, we should see the range of the T3SR creeping up to 230 and 250 miles at the same price, because it does not cost much for Tesla to increase their range and there is ample room for the increase. The T3LR will also increase its range, but because it is out of room, it will increase much slower. Most likely, Tesla will use the upgrade room for the T3SR and move it to let's say 260 miles, while offering a "software crippled version" at 215 miles at the same price, and asking for a premium for the 260 mile version to uncripple the vehicle.
The T3LR comes out at 96x43 cells for a storage capacity of 73 kWh and 78 kWh respectively (average is about 75 kWh). Each cell is 4.9 Ah, which is probably what a 'standard capacity' 2170 is.
In the longer term, we should see the range of the T3SR creeping up to 230 and 250 miles at the same price, because it does not cost much for Tesla to increase their range and there is ample room for the increase. The T3LR will also increase its range, but because it is out of room, it will increase much slower. Most likely, Tesla will use the upgrade room for the T3SR and move it to let's say 260 miles, while offering a "software crippled version" at 215 miles at the same price, and asking for a premium for the 260 mile version to uncripple the vehicle.
Doesn't that come with extras?
It's the older more costly cells, and for ~27kWh (actual size) rather than ~22kWh (my guess) in the case of Model 3. Model 3 gets more value for money on the range upgrade, but rest assured Tesla make 3-4x the cost on it. They likely optimized the range difference and price to get as many extra millions (billions) from the upgrade being chosen a lot, while not disppointing/offending those waiting for the $35K car. The black only is for that
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