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Blue Origin: Future Plans

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I wonder how much of his own money Bezos will have out in to B.O. (if and) when New Glenn actually starts launching orbital payloads to space...

Forbes estimated 7.5 billion as of a couple of years ago, and I've seen some estimates that he's increased his spend to ~$1B a year... he may be at $10B by now...

Obviously they's gotten gov't funding as well, but much of that is earmarked for other stuff, like the Artemis lander development... B.O. seems to have their finger in a lot of expensive pies... all of which seem to need to bake for a while longer...
 
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I've seen some estimates that he's increased his spend to ~$1B a year... he may be at $10B by now...
That's the number I've heard for a while, but it's still loose change he pulls out of his sofa. His net worth has risen by over $40 billion this year. He may lose all that next year, but he'll still be able to fund Blue Origin at those levels for another century - barring wars, economic collapse and such.

Jeff's net worth is estimated at $150 billion, but I don't know if that includes Blue Origin itself. He owns the whole thing, so if it's successful, they're going to have to mint new words for his level of wealth (trillionaire is so passé). The same will be true for Elon, of course. He doesn't own the whole company, but I expect SpaceX to be a much larger company.
 
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Vulcan is not as cost effective as Falcon 9 or Heavy but it does have some features that make it a good alternative for customers. I am no expert but from what I have learned from people with more knowledge is that getting to the right place and the right speed can be more critical than launch cost.

True, Vulcan wins on delta V for deeper space missions. For bench racing rockets mass performance is good enough...as long as the orbits being compared are the same. (Its easy to get crossed up with different inclinations and altitudes)

Probably the most useful SX vs ULA comparison is F9 ASDS vs VC2S (two SRBs). If we assume that if Vulcan's price is indeed $100-200M (as wiki'ed) and they have four variants, we can SWAG that the second variant (the one with two SRBs) will be ~$133M. (Given that a GEM-63XL is less than $10M, a $33M upcharge to bolt two of them onto a $100M SRB-less rocket might be a bit high.) With VC2S's slightly higher mass to LEO $133M works out to a mass to orbit price premium of 80% for Vulcan.

Circling back to your quoted point, things are a bit different if we look at GTO--the Vulcan price premium drops to ~40%. Real money for sure, but not game over money, especially for a state funded program that costs hundreds of millions of dollars anyway--when the stupid tax on a more expensive rocket is single digit %'s of the mission budget, its hard to get too worked up.

You can also bet that there's more appetite for price negotiation on a big buy with Vulcan vs Falcon since SX doesn't have to worry about competing on bottom line price (though as I've also noted in the past, of course SX has plenty of room to go lower with price).

Back to Blue Origin, the same has been said about New Glenn. It is also, potentially, a nice alternative for certain types of launches.

Yes it's a similar technical upside vs Falcon. I don't think there's NG pricing in the open, but its fair for someone of reasonable mind to speculate that a private company like BO knows they need to be at least in the ballpark on mass to orbit price to stay relevant. Time will tell on where they land publicly.

If it matters, I suspect that Neutron and Terran-R will really be the next catalyst(s) to re-reshape the launch industry, much like F9 has done recently. Once (if) they go operational they'll be able to better compete on price and availability with Falcon and the commercial/competitive landscape will be very customer friendly. Together those three vehicles will take the launch landscape into the middle of next decade, if not farther (plus also a globally competitive vehicle or two from Jai-nuh, at least for non-US customers, and likely also a competitively priced vehicle from Mitsubishi).

That likely future will, for better or worse, make it hard for NG to really compete commercially IMO....and ULA too (though its probably fair to assume their price makes it hard for them to be primary competitors in the commercial space anyway, and so they're likely banking on Uncle Sam keeping the lights on in case Elon starts peeing in jars). Anyway, I think the primary struggle for NG is going to be its size. It's going to be hard for any entity to maximize the design of NG, mostly because those entities can work within the 5m class vehicles and have a number of options instead. NG users guide implies they aspire to do dual manifest launches (similar to Ariane) which WILL make NG a little more attractive--especially for GTO missions (dual manifest to LEO is kind of wonky)--but dual manifest launches also have their own issues, notably scheduling.

Beyond that, NG ends up competing with Starship which, while not nearly the lopsided affair most here would assume, will still almost certainly always favor Starship.

Starship is yet another piece of the puzzle and SpaceX will eventually get it up and running.

Indeed. Though, while somewhat understandable in this kind of forum, there's some aspiration/fantasy amongst the fanbase that does cloud where Starship actually is and where it's going. Its easy for folks to get wrapped up in the very open/public progress of SS, but big picture, its more or less neck and neck with NG relative to when they started (both in the early 2010's), where they are (early iteration flight hardware generally available except for some long poles), and where a reasonable evaluation would pin the calendar for when each is likely to put a significant, retail paying customer on orbit (in other words, not some cubesats or cheap rides on demo launches or internal payloads like Starlink that have little failure downside).

As far as the puzzle goes, time will tell if/when SX can actually get the SS launch cadence they want. IMO they're not going to get there from existing spaceports: I don't think Texass will be ok with a gazillion launches, and I think CCAFS/KSC is going to start throttling the number of SX launches as their total cadence increases (and especially as other launchers come online and need the chance to launch). I also wouldn't be surprised if the noise gets to be a problem in Florida (though I also wouldn't be surprised if the authoritarian Florida legislature tells Grandma to **** off with her noise complaints).

Anyway, time will also tell if/when SS's pricing is attractive enough for paying customers to pay for a wrong-sized vehicle. As I've opined before, for a long time nobody but a megaconstellation actually needs something as big as a starship. IMO the real commercial strategy for Starship is going to be to convince paying customers that it's a better deal to save a few bucks and ride the Greyhound for 6 hours rather than taking that 1 hour flight. Or, another analogy, convince Amazon its a better deal to do customer deliveries out the back of a 53' semi trailer instead of a fleet of sprinter vans.

Bottom line, Starship clearly is imperative to achieve anything close to the stated Starlink aspirations. Starship's upside to [low volume] exploration missions over 5m options is pretty clear, and it's likely these kinds of missions will bring in big state monies. Starship's upside to traditional government missions isn't that apparent, given that state funded missions aren't transitioning away from "traditional" anytime soon, and NG will offer an alternative. And most importantly, where Starship fits in the current and future commercial launch vehicle space--which is where most of the growth in the space industry is coming from--is very much not clear.
 
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The article mentions providing "refueling, data relay and other logistics services for payloads".

I think the plan is to create it as an logistics vehicle with propulsion. It can be left on orbit so that you don't have to keep lofting the mass of one of these things for each mission. Instead, you loft some fuel and the satellite, rendezvous with the vehicle, refuel it, transfer the satellite, and off it goes on another trip. Once at the destination, it drops off the satellite. From there, it probably just waits until it has another job. That might be to fly to another orbit and refuel a satellite, or grab a satellite and take it down to LEO for disposal or return. It should be fun once satellites are designed for this sort of thing.


And another article by Matija Milenovic, Co-Founder & CEO of porkchop, "a Stockholm-based startup with the goal of establishing an interplanetary economy".


Re "I think the plan is...", my gut feeling from reading it, based on the fact that it seems like a laundry list of features, is that it's a brain-storming session on what they could do, and they're releasing this with the hope that somebody comes knocking with serious interest willing to fund development of one or two of the features. Then they'll start. V-next will add a feature, etc.
 
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Re "I think the plan is...", my gut feeling from reading it, based on the fact that it seems like a laundry list of features, is that it's a brain-storming session on what they could do, and they're releasing this with the hope that somebody comes knocking with serious interest willing to fund development of one or two of the features. Then they'll start. V-next will add a feature, etc.

Could be some of that--notably refueling, which nobody has really done yet (though there's plenty of work done on that already too) and nobody has closed the business case yet.

Generally though, the Blue Ring feature set is largely under development already for other Blue projects, adjacently if not directly. At its core, Blue Ring is mostly just a compilation of existing space functions like propulsion and communications and hardware restraint-and-release. It really just seems like Blue thinks they can better monetize*** technology they're already developing through existing funding.

***I'm pretty skeptical that there's a significant market for space tugs, or at least the one-time-use variants that are currently contemplated (like Blue Ring). IMO there's a mid-term future (~decades from now) where there's a dedicated space freighter that can go from LEO to other orbits multiple times and provide cost effective logistics, but in the short term future its typically going to be more efficient and and overall cheaper to internalize Blue Ring-like functionality within a mission's space infrastructure (the satellites) rather than procure it as a service.
 
***I'm pretty skeptical that there's a significant market for space tugs, or at least the one-time-use variants that are currently contemplated (like Blue Ring). IMO there's a mid-term future (~decades from now) where there's a dedicated space freighter that can go from LEO to other orbits multiple times and provide cost effective logistics, but in the short term future its typically going to be more efficient and and overall cheaper to internalize Blue Ring-like functionality within a mission's space infrastructure (the satellites) rather than procure it as a service.

I didn't pick up on one time use. Really? That just seems silly. At that point this sounds more like my (poor) understanding of a satellite bus, only they're proposing moving features into the bus.

Also, why is it called "Blue Ring"? From the name I was expecting a torus.
 
I didn't pick up on one time use. Really? That just seems silly. At that point this sounds more like my (poor) understanding of a satellite bus, only they're proposing moving features into the bus.

For better or worse, single mission use is just where we are right now on the timeline of space technology. The closest we’ve gotten is Shuttle, and that thing had to both a) come back to earth every mission and b) be quite refurbished every time. Starship will hopefully be a next step, at least if we believe the aspirational fuel-and-go turnaround concept of it (and Booster). I suppose one could also argue the space stations over the decades have provided multi-mission support of a sort, but...I digress...

While I think Blue Ring can and will be used as sort of an uber version of Transporter, my read on Blue Ring is that BO thinks there’s untapped market at the high end of Space-As-Service (SAS). SAS, in a nutshell, is the abstraction of space mission activities away from the customer. Traditional space missions are heavy on capex, the procurement of bespoke infrastructure (satellites, ground networks, etc.) with long lead times, and customer involvement/responsibility through the design and manufacturing phases (since the customer ultimately owns mission risk). SAS aims to reduce the procurement cycle and shift the customer supplier relationship to an opex heavy service agreement where much—up to all—of the mission’s procurement, operations, and risk are on the supplier. The extreme end of the SAS spectrum is a single deliverable to the customer—a data stream, or even a stream of processed data. I suspect for some folks that's not exactly a revolutionary concept. For space, that's cutting edge.

Coming slightly back to reality, elements of SAS have been implemented to varying degrees in the cubesat and microsat (~100kg) markets, though it's generally still very capex weighted, and generally the customer is still responsible for bringing the payload to party and ultimately being the satellite operator. A handful are really making a go at pushing the limits as described above (Loft Orbital is one), though it's not easy. The supplier is still generally locked into a front-loaded cashflow because space stuff is still expensive and has long lead times, and so the more the relationship trends toward SLA/opex, the deeper the supplier's negative cashflow goes. Not ideal. But I digress again.

Anyway, Importantly (and finally setting up the point), this shift toward SAS has been very much enabled by the the handful of fully qualified, [mostly] off the shelf platforms that anyone can just go out and buy for a couple million bucks. Before those were available you were either finding someone new and aggressive that hadn't really done anything in space and would more or less white paper a platform design for you that might just work, or you were contracting one of the Legacy Primes to cobble together a hybrid platform based on whatever they'd done in the past plus whatever bespoke requirements you needed satisfied.

My suspicion is that what Blue really wants to do is SAS but for bigger, more 'important', longer duration, and deeper space missions. These wouldn't be typical commercial comms programs (GEOs or LEO/MEO constellations), but rather hosting some customer's unique gizmo that they want to send to higher (beyond LEO) or atypical earth orbits, or maybe to the moon or mars or Lagrange. That would appeal to a customer that doesn't really want to get into the weeds of propulsion and data and reliability analyses and satellite operations, but whose other option is to go buy an expensive platform from Airbus or Thales or Maxar or Boeing.

Are there enough of that kind of customer to make a business out of the thing? Time will tell...


Just in case I actually got that right, I haven't actually talked to them about Blue Ring yet and this is all based on public domain informed speculation. So Jeff, nobody leaked anything and you can put away the snitches get stitches paddle.

Also, why is it called "Blue Ring"? From the name I was expecting a torus.

Jeff probably has some cringey backstory.
 
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Blue Origin's Blue Moon lander mockup.

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For better or worse, single mission use is just where we are right now on the timeline of space technology. The closest we’ve gotten is Shuttle, and that thing had to both a) come back to earth every mission and b) be quite refurbished every time. Starship will hopefully be a next step, at least if we believe the aspirational fuel-and-go turnaround concept of it (and Booster).

<snip>

It seems like Falcon 9/Heavy was the next step?
 
Or are you joking about the mockup's stand here?
No, I missed the fact that the door on the near side is actually one of four tanks. Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't recall a cargo variant in their original plans, and I just assumed that this was the crew lander.

Interestingly, it was apparently described as a "low fidelity mockup"
I try to be enthusiastic for all the aerospace companies, but it's getting pretty difficult to care about Blue Origin. They're doing exactly what other aerospace startups have done for decades; plans, meetings, contracts, mockups and proof of concept vehicles. Then they slowly wind down to mockups, meetings, plans - and then vanish, leaving behind nothing more than a Wikipedia page. Get. Moving.
 
I try to be enthusiastic for all the aerospace companies, but it's getting pretty difficult to care about Blue Origin. They're doing exactly what other aerospace startups have done for decades; plans, meetings, contracts, mockups and proof of concept vehicles. Then they slowly wind down to mockups, meetings, plans - and then vanish, leaving behind nothing more than a Wikipedia page. Get. Moving.
Blue Origin motto: "Gradatim Ferociter". "Step by Step, Ferociously."

Zeno’s Dichotomy Paradox (sort of) comes to life. BO is taking an enormous number of steps and yet always has halfway remaining to the goal…