Blue Origin: Future Plans

[JB47394]

Less expansion is less isp (less efficiency).

Right. So with the surrounding engines of a Saturn V pressing in on the exhaust from the center engine, that exhaust should be contained for a longer time. Hence, higher ISP. That's what an aerospike does. The concentric rings of the Starship booster (and the Starship itself, for that matter) should function collectively like an aerospike. My comment on the bell size is almost an aside. The bell is, in theory, oversized for the environment. I would think that the bells of the innermost engines could just be eliminated (except that they are fired independently during landing).

The fact that SpaceX has never mentioned the effect tells me that I'm wrong, but the basic rocketry stuff that you've described hasn't convinced me why that is.

I need to sit down with a SpaceX engines guy over a few drinks.

The ship's engines are recessed because the ship stacks on the booster and test stands so it needs the walls there

I suspect that they are recessed for reentry more than anything else. Those walls could be constructed as a framework, as with certain Russian rockets that hot fire stages. But SpaceX would have to figure out how to thermally protect the framework, so they just went with solid walls and will use some other technique to vent engine exhaust during hot firing.

 

[mongo]

. So with the surrounding engines of a Saturn V pressing in on the exhaust from the center engine, that exhaust should be contained for a longer time. Hence, higher ISP. That's what an aerospike does.

Lower expansion ratio = lower velocity = lower isp.
Gas behavior after the bell doesn't add thrust.

Aerospike allows maximized expansion by using a surface on one side and atmosphere on the other. This allows one engine operate at sea level while also having a high expansion ratio in vaccum. Whereas a vacuum bell at sea level experiences flow separation and instability that can lead to failure.

I suspect that they are recessed for reentry more than anything else.

Good point, need those tiles.

 

[JB47394]

Gas behavior after the bell doesn't add thrust.

I was assuming that it did. The image I have is of the outer engine exhaust serving as a virtual bell. But now that I think about it, that bell is moving just as fast as the center engine exhaust, so it doesn't accomplish anything useful. And now I understand aerospikes better. Thanks.

 

[ecarfan]

The concentric rings of the Starship booster (and the Starship itself, for that matter) should function collectively like an aerospike.

(Caveat: I am definitely not a rocket scientist) Note that in the BP patent drawing the engine nozzles are all angled inward by the same amount, and that there is a complete absence of engine nozzles in a large area in the center. That is very different from both Starship stages. I don’t see how the booster’s Raptors in their current configuration could produce an aerospike effect.

 

[Electroman]

Term of the week : “Aerospike”

 

[Grendal]

Term of the week : “Aerospike”

Everything you need to know:

 

[scaesare]

I'm glad BO was able to determine what the issues were. Kudos to them. I hope the redesigns are successful... I want to see those suckers fly.

I find it amazing that such root cause analysis is possible with rockets that have blown to smithereens and only the scantest of physical evidence recovered....

According to Berger's Ars Article New Shepard may return to flight next month, about a year after their mishap.

 

[ecarfan]

Thought I would throw in a new aerial view of the BO campus. It really looks great. Money has been spent to make the numerous buildings and grounds look nice. Now if they could just get a rocket on the pad…

 

[JB47394]

Bob Smith, who came from Lockheed, is no longer CEO at Blue Origin. The new guy is Dave Limp, who was recently Amazon's VP of devices and services (Kuiper, Kindle, Alexa, Fire TV, etc).

Jeff Bezos finally got rid of Bob Smith at Blue Origin

"I am confident that Blue Origin's greatest achievements are still ahead of us."

arstechnica.com

 

[Cosmacelf]

Bob Smith, who came from Lockheed, is no longer CEO at Blue Origin. The new guy is Dave Limp, who was recently Amazon's VP of devices and services (Kuiper, Kindle, Alexa, Fire TV, etc).

Jeff Bezos finally got rid of Bob Smith at Blue Origin

"I am confident that Blue Origin's greatest achievements are still ahead of us."

arstechnica.com

Oh man, just when I though Eric Berger had written the most pointed story, he whips out another zinger. Savage!

 

[ecarfan]

The new guy is Dave Limp, who was recently Amazon's VP of devices and services (Kuiper, Kindle, Alexa, Fire TV, etc).

Well, I guess orbital class rockets are a kind of a ’device”. After all, the Fire TV was a massive success…

 

[ecarfan]

Eric Berger: “Limp has some space experience, as his division also oversaw the development of the Project Kuiper megaconstellation, a competitor with SpaceX's Starlink Internet service that seeks to deliver high-bandwidth Internet from low-Earth orbit.”

A competitor that has yet to provide service to a single person because it has no operational sats.

 

[scaesare]

Bob Smith, who came from Lockheed, is no longer CEO at Blue Origin. The new guy is Dave Limp, who was recently Amazon's VP of devices and services (Kuiper, Kindle, Alexa, Fire TV, etc).

Jeff Bezos finally got rid of Bob Smith at Blue Origin

"I am confident that Blue Origin's greatest achievements are still ahead of us."

arstechnica.com

You beat me to it...

I think this comment explains a lot of what we've (not) seen from B.O.:

With any corporate culture, there will be growing pains, of course. But Smith brought a traditional aerospace mindset into a company that had hitherto been guided by a new space vision...

 

[JB47394]

I think this comment explains a lot of what we've (not) seen from B.O.:

Yes, but that's on Jeff Bezos. My guess is that Bob Smith was hired because he had connections in traditional aerospace and that Jeff was playing the government angle - and he lost. I think Jeff wanted the Artemis contract (both for cash as well as prestige) and figured that being in bed with traditional aerospace was the way to go. He played it like a politician and got beaten by an engineer. Then, like a politician, he argued it in court - and he lost. That loss signaled the sea change in the way the government looks at aerospace contracts.

Forgive the NFL analogy, but this is reminding me of Dan Snyder buying the Washington Redskins (oddly, about the time that Blue Origin was founded). Dan has all the worst instincts for being an NFL owner and he pretty much destroyed a successful and loved franchise in every way he could. He is reviled by team fans. I wonder if Jeff is the Dan Snyder of aerospace, where he has the money but completely the wrong instincts. He may never find success because his personality will always undermine the company and its culture.

 

[scaesare]

Yes, but that's on Jeff Bezos. My guess is that Bob Smith was hired because he had connections in traditional aerospace and that Jeff was playing the government angle - and he lost. I think Jeff wanted the Artemis contract (both for cash as well as prestige) and figured that being in bed with traditional aerospace was the way to go. He played it like a politician and got beaten by an engineer. Then, like a politician, he argued it in court - and he lost. That loss signaled the sea change in the way the government looks at aerospace contracts.

Forgive the NFL analogy, but this is reminding me of Dan Snyder buying the Washington Redskins (oddly, about the time that Blue Origin was founded). Dan has all the worst instincts for being an NFL owner and he pretty much destroyed a successful and loved franchise in every way he could. He is reviled by team fans. I wonder if Jeff is the Dan Snyder of aerospace, where he has the money but completely the wrong instincts. He may never find success because his personality will always undermine the company and its culture.

Oooh... you and I both being from the DMV region, that's a stinging analogy! But, probably an apt one....

Jeff's clearly got some business acumen... but it doesn't seem to often translate well into the tech/engineering realm....

(Speaking of stinging.. that Buffalo game... oof...)

 

[Cosmacelf]

Yes, but that's on Jeff Bezos. My guess is that Bob Smith was hired because he had connections in traditional aerospace and that Jeff was playing the government angle - and he lost. I think Jeff wanted the Artemis contract (both for cash as well as prestige) and figured that being in bed with traditional aerospace was the way to go. He played it like a politician and got beaten by an engineer. Then, like a politician, he argued it in court - and he lost. That loss signaled the sea change in the way the government looks at aerospace contracts.

Forgive the NFL analogy, but this is reminding me of Dan Snyder buying the Washington Redskins (oddly, about the time that Blue Origin was founded). Dan has all the worst instincts for being an NFL owner and he pretty much destroyed a successful and loved franchise in every way he could. He is reviled by team fans. I wonder if Jeff is the Dan Snyder of aerospace, where he has the money but completely the wrong instincts. He may never find success because his personality will always undermine the company and its culture.

I think that’s an astute observation. When Bob was hired, it was an admission that Bezos didn’t think he could out compete Elon with an engineering led approach and instead tried to go the government pork train route. That’s why BO was so furious and put out when they lost the lander contract, that was their only strategy.

So, hiring a consumer product guy means his next strategy is ???

 

[JB47394]

So, hiring a consumer product guy means his next strategy is ???

I think he's just going with what he knows. Dave Limp worked for him at Amazon, and Jeff probably found him impressive, so he's moving away from the legacy aerospace guy who disappointed him and is putting in somebody that contrasts well. For all we know, Dave is going to be a fireball of a leader for Blue Origin and get them moving just as fast as SpaceX.

If Dave is smart, he'll transform the environment at Blue Origin from what must be "large corporate" into one that is more like SpaceX's "technology startup". That will probably involve losing a lot of the people that were hired on Bob Smith's watch.

As a reminder, here is Blue Origin's vision statement (taken from their web site):

Blue Origin was founded with a vision of millions of people living and working in space for the benefit of Earth. Blue Origin envisions a time when people can tap into the limitless resources of space and enable the movement of damaging industries into space to preserve Earth, humanity’s blue origin.

Given what's going on with robotics and AI right now, that's fairly tone deaf. We aren't going to need millions of people in space. We're going to need millions of robots up there. But that will still require reusable rockets like New Glenn (and, probably, New Armstrong).

 

[Grendal]

Blue Origin unveils plans for orbital transfer vehicle

Blue Origin formally announced plans Oct. 16 to develop an orbital maneuvering vehicle, confirming a year’s worth of comments and speculation about it.

spacenews.com

 

[ecarfan]

I’m trying to understand how the BO “Blue Reef” spacecraft differs from say, the FH second stage that can send payloads to the Moon and Mars. Will Blue Reef be launched on New Glenn and then take its payload to somewhere in cislunar space? If so, how is that different from launching a satellite with its own propulsion system?

 

[Grendal]

I’m trying to understand how the BO “Blue Reef” spacecraft differs from say, the FH second stage that can send payloads to the Moon and Mars. Will Blue Reef be launched on New Glenn and then take its payload to somewhere in cislunar space? If so, how is that different from launching a satellite with its own propulsion system?

It is most like Photon from Rocketlab. It's just a big kick stage that can be refueled. I think.