Cadillac adds lane changing to Super Cruise

[Bballou]

That's due to Cadillac mapping out the highways with lidar so the car basically follows an imaginary path in the the middle of the lane.

How would LIDAR help with mapping or following lanes? Even if this were true, wouldn't that mean that if the car leaves the mapped area that it will fail? If there's any changes in lane markings, such as for construction, it will fail? If a vehicle hovers over the line, such as a truck, requiring the car to reposition in the lane, it will fail?

I'm excited for more and better self-driving tech, but I feel like Autopilot is often being unfairly graded on a curve.

 

[diplomat33]

How would LIDAR help with mapping or following lanes? Even if this were true, wouldn't that mean that if the car leaves the mapped area that it will fail? If there's any changes in lane markings, such as for construction, it will fail? If a vehicle hovers over the line, such as a truck, requiring the car to reposition in the lane, it will fail?

No, I don't think so. The car also uses cameras to do lane keeping. It is not just blindly following an imaginary path. But the lidar mapping gives the car a high res accurate map of the road to help with lane keeping. So you have 2 things, the high res mapping and the cameras, working together to ensure the car is following that imaginary path in the middle of the lane and staying on course. Of course, if the system detects that it can't do lane keeping, I assume it notifies the driver with an alert to take over.

That's my understanding of how it works.

I'm excited for more and better self-driving tech, but I feel like Autopilot is often being unfairly graded on a curve.

Well, maybe that is because Elon keeps boasting about FSD and how our cars will be robotaxis in a year from now. That tends to create high expectations.

 

[Bballou]

But the lidar mapping gives the car a high res accurate map of the road to help with lane keeping.

LIDAR doesn't map the road, it maps obstacles. I don't see how it would help at all with lane keeping.

You're claiming that Autopilot is less reliable because of features that extend beyond what systems like Supercruise even attempt. You also acknowledge that Autopilot suffers from inflated expectations. As someone who drives 50+ miles per day on Autopilot, it's hard to imagine it being much more reliable at the core features that Supercruise is competing with - highway lane keeping and auto-lane changing. You're making a lot of assumptions about the reliability of Supercruise that I don't feel are justified.

 

[seattlite2004]

I wonder how many deaths have occurred while Supercruise was engaged.... Anyone know...have a link?

 

[Daniel in SD]

I wonder how many deaths have occurred while Supercruise was engaged.... Anyone know...have a link?

My guess would be zero. There really aren’t very many cars with super cruise on the road. Average fatality rate in the US is about 1 per 100 million miles and the Cadillac is probably way safer than average and super cruise only works on divided highways which are also way safer than the average road.

I think super cruise uses hd maps which they use to localize the vehicle which does help with lane keeping. The LIDAR data probably just helps avoid errors in the maps that could crash you into something solid (i.e. the Walter Huang Autopilot crash).

 

[diplomat33]

LIDAR doesn't map the road, it maps obstacles. I don't see how it would help at all with lane keeping.

That is incorrect. LIDAR is used for lane keeping.

You're claiming that Autopilot is less reliable because of features that extend beyond what systems like Supercruise even attempt. You also acknowledge that Autopilot suffers from inflated expectations. As someone who drives 50+ miles per day on Autopilot, it's hard to imagine it being much more reliable at the core features that Supercruise is competing with - highway lane keeping and auto-lane changing. You're making a lot of assumptions about the reliability of Supercruise that I don't feel are justified.

Not sure what you are referring to when you say I am basing my reliability on features that extend beyond what systems like Supercruise even attempt. I am only talking about what NOA and Supercruise 2.0 do.

Supercruise 2.0 only does 3 things:
- Lane Keeping
- TACC
- Auto Lane Change with blinker

I am saying Supercruise 2.0 does these things very reliably based on the reviews and information I have.

NOA does more. NOA does the following:
- Lane Keeping
- TACC
- Auto Lane Change to pass traffic (with no confirmation)
- Auto Lane Change to change highways (with no confirmation)
- Automatically takes exits
- On and off ramps

I can tell you from personal use that NOA does these things pretty well but not super reliably. I've done 340 miles road trips all on NOA. It was very good. It made the trip great. But it had its problems with aborted lane changes, missing exits, almost hitting concrete barriers in constructions zones if I had not take over etc...

Saying "it's hard to imagine" based on 50 miles is hardly an objective measuring stick either.

 

[diamond.g]

My guess would be zero. There really aren’t very many cars with super cruise on the road. Average fatality rate in the US is about 1 per 100 million miles and the Cadillac is probably way safer than average and super cruise only works on divided highways which are also way safer than the average road.

I think super cruise uses hd maps which they use to localize the vehicle which does help with lane keeping. The LIDAR data probably just helps avoid errors in the maps that could crash you into something solid (i.e. the Walter Huang Autopilot crash).

The comments in the ars article say that there are less than 20k CT6's with supercruise on the road. So it is highly likely there have been no fatalities (probably very few crashes as well).

 

[Bballou]

I wasn't aware of LIDAR being used for lane detection. Do we know if Cadillac is equipping Supercruise with LIDAR or is this only used for mapping? If it's only mapping, then this would give me significantly less confidence in Supercruise vs Autopilot. If Supercruise is relying on HD mapping for things as simple as lane keeping then I have doubts about how it will handle more dynamic situations.

I can tell you from personal use that NOA does these things pretty well but not super reliably. I've done 340 miles road trips all on NOA. It was very good. It made the trip great. But it had its problems with aborted lane changes, missing exits, almost hitting concrete barriers in constructions zones if I had not take over etc...

Why are you comparing NOA to Supercruise at all? You don't have to activate NOA if you don't want to. Why not compare basic Autopilot? You're faulting NOA for missing exits without acknowledging that Supercruise misses every exit. How would Supercruise's HD mapping prevent it from hitting a construction barrier that you hold against Autopilot?

Also, I said 50+ miles per day, not 50 miles total. I've also completed extended road trips of over 3K miles round-trip, overwhelmingly on Autopilot. 2 years ago I would have agreed that Autopilot is relatively unreliable, because it was. Of course there are still fringe situations that force the driver to take over, but the only way you can say that Supercruise is more reliable is in that it reliably and more definitively fails (i.e. when it leaves its designated operating areas).

 

[diplomat33]

Why are you comparing NOA to Supercruise at all? You don't have to activate NOA if you don't want to. Why not compare basic Autopilot? You're faulting NOA for missing exits without acknowledging that Supercruise misses every exit. How would Supercruise's HD mapping prevent it from hitting a construction barrier that you hold against Autopilot?

Feature wise, maybe maybe I should compare AP to Supercruise since they have the same features. The reason I compare NOA to Supercruise is because I feel like NOA is Tesla's intended competition to Supercruise because both are designed to be highway L2+.

 

[diplomat33]

I wasn't aware of LIDAR being used for lane detection. Do we know if Cadillac is equipping Supercruise with LIDAR or is this only used for mapping? If it's only mapping, then this would give me significantly less confidence in Supercruise vs Autopilot. If Supercruise is relying on HD mapping for things as simple as lane keeping then I have doubts about how it will handle more dynamic situations.

AFAIK, Cadillac don't have lidar sensors. Lidar is strictly used to build the HD map. Supercruise requires that the driver center the car in the lane first before activating the system. Basically, you center the car in the lane. The car uses precise GPS and the lidar based map to determine the precise location of the car and that you are indeed well centered in the lane. Then, it uses cameras to steer to keep you in the lane, probably checking the lidar based map for redundancy. So it might be more limited than AP but when it works, it seems to have a redundant and reliable system for lane keeping. Based on the reviews, Supercruise has excellent lane keeping.

Supercruise does not use HD maps as the primary source for lane keeping. It uses cameras. But HD maps can be really useful to make lane keeping more reliable. For example, there are plenty of situations where lane markings might be a bit faded or asphalt is discolored where cameras only might struggle a little bit. A HD map can increase the reliability by telling the cameras where the lane lines really are if there is any doubt.

Here's a good review of the old Supercruise but other than auto lane change, it should be pretty similar to the new supercruise.

Supercruise probably can't handle every dynamic situation since it is just a driver assist, not autonomous.

 

[seattlite2004]

Good info on Supercruise: Super Cruise: Hands-Free Driving, Cutting Edge Technology

 

[Tam]

...That sounds like a very safe way of doing auto lane changes.

It's disappointing that GM does not publically explain its auto lane changes technology as in the specifications of its hardware and software.

The public just have to rely on faith that it must be very safe!

 

[diplomat33]

It's disappointing that GM does not publically its auto lane changes as in the specifications of its hardware and software.

The public just have to rely on faith that it must be very safe!

Considering that this new Supercruise with auto lane changes is going on 2021 models, it's very new. I am sure we will get reviews of it at some point and we can start to judge for ourselves.

 

[Tam]

...No, I don't think so. The car also uses cameras to do lane keeping. It is not just blindly following an imaginary path. But the lidar mapping gives the car a high res accurate map of the road to help with lane keeping. So you have 2 things, the high res mapping and the cameras, working together to ensure the car is following that imaginary path in the middle of the lane and staying on course. Of course, if the system detects that it can't do lane keeping, I assume it notifies the driver with an alert to take over.

That's my understanding of how it works...

My speculation is: The pre-mapped data has to match with real-time data or otherwise the system would shut down and the driver has to manually drive the car.

An example that the two don't match can be because the lanes have been repainted due to construction.

The Tesla manual says Autopilot should not be used in the construction zone, city... but it still works pretty well. On the other hand, the GM Super Cruise enforces that very strictly: It would shut down if it thinks there's evidence for suspicion of construction, city...

 

[diplomat33]

My speculation is: The pre-mapped data has to match with real-time data or otherwise the system would shut down and the driver has to manually drive the car.

An example that the two don't match can be because the lanes have been repainted due to construction.

The Tesla manual says Autopilot should not be used in the construction zone, city... but it still works pretty well. On the other hand, the GM Super Cruise enforces that very strictly: It would shut down if it thinks there's evidence for suspicion of construction, city...

Definitely. Which is one reason why I said that Supercruise is more limited. Autopilot works in a lot more cases than Supercruise and can do more but maybe not super reliable in every single case. Whereas Supercruise works in fewer cases but when it does work, it is probably very reliable.

 

[banned-66611]

Lidar seems to be the way to go. Nissan's hands-free autopilot, available only in Japan at the moment, uses lidar and high resolution maps.

 

[diamond.g]

Lidar seems to be the way to go. Nissan's hands-free autopilot, available only in Japan at the moment, uses lidar and high resolution maps.

Like the cars have lidar, or they used lidar mapping.

 

[banned-66611]

Like the cars have lidar, or they used lidar mapping.

Sorry, what do you mean?

The car has lidar and radar. It had HD maps so it can combine those sensors with GPS to locate itself on the road to within a centimetre.

 

[diamond.g]

Sorry, what do you mean?

The car has lidar and radar. It had HD maps so it can combine those sensors with GPS to locate itself on the road to within a centimetre.

The Caddy doesn't have lidar onboard. I thought Audi was the only one selling a car that has lidar. Can you send a link for the Nissan system?

 

[banned-66611]

The Caddy doesn't have lidar onboard. I thought Audi was the only one selling a car that has lidar. Can you send a link for the Nissan system?

Oh you weren't talking about the Nissan. Well I don't have a link for tech details, only some ads for it in Japanese.