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Charging issues

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
6,765
8,346
Boise, ID
Actually, 240V is standard single phase power running into any residence/building.
Sigh. Nice of you to use the word "actually" and then have this a little bit wrong.
I think you meant to say "into any residential building". Residential buildings, like houses do get those split phase 120/240V supplies. Commercial buildings generally don't. It's not correct to say that 240V is into any residence or building, which is what your slash mark is saying.
To get 208V, you have to have three phase running into the building.
Right, and that is what most commercial industrial buildings have.
The SC does have a row of HPWCs that are connected to 240. The 208V outlets are all in the shop, which is where the previous dealer probably had various equipment plugged in.
Well, OK. That is extremely unusual for a building to have BOTH the split phase and the 3 phase supplies, so they can have both of the 240V and 208V circuits at the same premises. Buildings are almost always only one or the other. I was definitely not expecting that would be the case.
We tried his UMC as well. The current tally is that I've tried four different UMCs at my house and another UMC at another house. All produce the same issue.
Whoa--interesting. So your and his cable and your and his car, and they all showed those errors when using the one outlet at your house. That seems to indicate something. The electrician checked the connection of the outlet, but I do wonder if there is a problem with the supply at your house or neighborhood.
The first thing the SC did was replace my gen 1 UMC with a gen 3 UMC. Considering the number of cables that I've tried, I don't think it's the cable.
There isn't a gen 3 UMC yet, but I get that, replacing the gen 1 from your 2016 car with a gen 2.
 

TMoore

Member
Dec 23, 2020
30
2
West Melbourne, FL
Sigh. Nice of you to use the word "actually" and then have this a little bit wrong.
I think you meant to say "into any residential building". Residential buildings, like houses do get those split phase 120/240V supplies. Commercial buildings generally don't. It's not correct to say that 240V is into any residence or building, which is what your slash mark is saying.

How can the building have standard 120V outlets if it doesn't have split phase coming in? Furthermore, based on the image below, 208V can only be achieved by having one full phase and a split phase. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't see how it's possible to have 120V and 208V, but not 240V.

Three-phase-4-wire-Delta-Thermal.jpg



There isn't a gen 3 UMC yet, but I get that, replacing the gen 1 from your 2016 car with a gen 2.

And that's what I get for listening to what the SC told my. I knew that, but I just took their word for it.
 

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
6,765
8,346
Boise, ID
How can the building have standard 120V outlets if it doesn't have split phase coming in?
Ah, that's a good question.
Furthermore, based on the image below,
Well, you didn't give any reference to where you got this image. The thing is, there are multiple different ways that are called 3 phase. This one you have shown is the one called "high-leg Delta or wild-leg Delta", because it looks like a triangle, which is the Greek letter delta. That one is not very common. It has a neutral point tapped halfway between two of the phases. That 3 phase system can provide 120V and 240V. But at least as common is one called Y (or spelled out Wye). And it is laid out differently, where there is a center tapped neutral, and then out from that center are the three phases in a Y shape. They are each 120V to the center neutral point, but they are 208V directly between any of the two hot lines, and there is no 240V available. That is what a lot of commercial buildings have. Here are some pages that show and talk about Delta and Y 3 phase systems. The first link especially shows a lot of the different configurations and what they are used for.

Electrical Service Types and Voltages – Continental Control Systems, LLC

Power Distribution -- Single-phase and Three-phase Distribution Equipment

Three-phase electric power - Wikipedia
 
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TMoore

Member
Dec 23, 2020
30
2
West Melbourne, FL
Well, I learned something today regarding delta and wye transformers.

I still think the SC needs to have the ability to plug in a UMC to a 240V outlet as only a very small percentage of Tesla owners are likely to charge using 208V.

I wish there was an easy way for me to lower the voltage at the house to see if that's the issue. I'm within the spec in the Tesla NEMA 14-50 Install Guide, which ranges from 208V to 250V (technically, the SC at 205V was outside of the spec), but maybe it has something to do with the voltage being on the high side.
 

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
6,765
8,346
Boise, ID
I still think the SC needs to have the ability to plug in a UMC to a 240V outlet as only a very small percentage of Tesla owners are likely to charge using 208V.
As I mentioned, that's just not an easy option, and certainly not something every service center should have set up, since it's normally not a problem, and this is some very weird obscure situation to figure out.
I wish there was an easy way for me to lower the voltage at the house to see if that's the issue. I'm within the spec in the Tesla NEMA 14-50 Install Guide, which ranges from 208V to 250V (technically, the SC at 205V was outside of the spec), but maybe it has something to do with the voltage being on the high side.
I don't think I saw a mention of it in the thread, but what voltage do you see on the car's screen when it's hooked up at your house for when it's charging and when it's not? House voltage usually does run a little bit high, because the electric companies want to allow a few volts of drop as it gets distributed down the line along the streets and through the houses. My house starts at 245V unloaded, and then drops to about 243V when it starts charging.
 

TMoore

Member
Dec 23, 2020
30
2
West Melbourne, FL
I don't think I saw a mention of it in the thread, but what voltage do you see on the car's screen when it's hooked up at your house for when it's charging and when it's not? House voltage usually does run a little bit high, because the electric companies want to allow a few volts of drop as it gets distributed down the line along the streets and through the houses. My house starts at 245V unloaded, and then drops to about 243V when it starts charging.

Mine stays in that same range when the solar panels on the house aren't operating. When the solar panels are operating, it usually starts at 247V and then drops to 244. I mostly charge at night, so the panels shouldn't be a contributing factor. I did flip the disconnect on them to be sure, and got the same errors
 
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Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
6,765
8,346
Boise, ID
Huh. 247V shouldn't be high enough to cause any kind of problem. The only thing people might see with that is if people are running at the max amps of the onboard charger, like 48A. If the voltage is noticeably high like that, it may hit the power limit of the charger, so it will back down to 47A instead of 48A to stay under the power limit, but it doesn't throw any kind of error when it does that.
 

TMoore

Member
Dec 23, 2020
30
2
West Melbourne, FL
Huh. 247V shouldn't be high enough to cause any kind of problem. The only thing people might see with that is if people are running at the max amps of the onboard charger, like 48A. If the voltage is noticeably high like that, it may hit the power limit of the charger, so it will back down to 47A instead of 48A to stay under the power limit, but it doesn't throw any kind of error when it does that.

This issue occurs when the car starts pulling 1-2A. I assume it "tests the water" before it starts ramping up the current draw, which is when it generates the errors. Sometimes it takes two or three attempts before it finally starts ramping up. This is why the fact that the two errors indicate that the current is over the limit seems like an issue with the car since it's controlling the current.
 

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
6,765
8,346
Boise, ID
I would kind of agree except for that one weird situation where you said another person's car showed the same errors. That should have never happened if this were just an issue with your car. I'm out of ideas now.
 

TMoore

Member
Dec 23, 2020
30
2
West Melbourne, FL
I am an electrical engineer, and someone who installs control systems for a living. I find op showing off how smart he is to people who are trying to help to be annoying and counter productive.

I am a certified power and grounding specialist, but op has google so I am wrong. Rocky obviously knows what he is doing, but op has google so he wrong too.

OP doesn't want help, he wants to show off his genius.

That's certainly not my intention. I'm just frustrated. If we're going to throw around credentials, I'm a Software Engineer in the aerospace industry with over 15 years of experience in development and deployment of complex avionics and weapon control systems. Sure, I'm not an EE, but I know a decent amount, but that doesn't mean I can't be wrong.

I certainly appreciate Rocky's help. He pointed out a few of my misunderstandings. If anything, hopefully this conversation will help people learn more about this, as I have.

I would kind of agree except for that one weird situation where you said another person's car showed the same errors. That should have never happened if this were just an issue with your car. I'm out of ideas now.

I've come to the same conclusion. The only possible solutions I can come up with are that the other car has the exact same issue that mine has or that it's some sort of issue with the software that affects a larger population of the cars. I'm probably going to have to call Tesla Service and see if I can get this escalated somehow
 

DMC-Orangeville

85D and John Deere 5100E
Feb 14, 2015
942
1,174
Orangeville ON Canada
I read through all of this and wanted to make a couple of comments
- RE transformers - I was in the low voltage dry type transformer business for 30 odd years (Hammond being my last stop), and I've never seen a commercial building with a delta split secondary as shown above. It is not uncommon to see an autotransformer "Open" Wye - sometimes called a buck-boost, used, which could give you 208/120 3 phase power, with a 240 tap - but it would never be used at a service entrance. If a customer did require 240 volt (for a commercial heater or oven etc. ), we'd suggest a separate circuit, and provide a smaller 208-240 volt distribution or autotransformer. Not common but certainly doable.

-RE your issue- Are you in an building where you could see some odd order harmonics? I've seen some weird stuff in Condominiums where the DC drives on the elevators have caused all sorts of power problems. Normally you see it with issues on the neutral and ground, but in odd cases, the wave form of the fundamental frequency can be so distorted that you'll see a much higher peak voltage, and multiple 0 point crossings. Could this confuse the charging system? - perhaps. However, this is highly unlikely in a house with single phase power, isolated from the utility and other disturbances through multiple utility transformers, and miles of cable.
You mentioned that you didn't have a high-end meter......you'll only see this if you can get a hold of a true RMS meter.
Just a thought.
 
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TMoore

Member
Dec 23, 2020
30
2
West Melbourne, FL
I read through all of this and wanted to make a couple of comments
- RE transformers - I was in the low voltage dry type transformer business for 30 odd years (Hammond being my last stop), and I've never seen a commercial building with a delta split secondary as shown above. It is not uncommon to see an autotransformer "Open" Wye - sometimes called a buck-boost, used, which could give you 208/120 3 phase power, with a 240 tap - but it would never be used at a service entrance. If a customer did require 240 volt (for a commercial heater or oven etc. ), we'd suggest a separate circuit, and provide a smaller 208-240 volt distribution or autotransformer. Not common but certainly doable.

It's entirely possible that they only have 120V and 208V. I'm assuming they also have 240V because the tech told me that the row of HPWCs outside are 240V. He could have been incorrect, or perhaps they have a dedicated service for them.

-RE your issue- Are you in an building where you could see some odd order harmonics? I've seen some weird stuff in Condominiums where the DC drives on the elevators have caused all sorts of power problems. Normally you see it with issues on the neutral and ground, but in odd cases, the wave form of the fundamental frequency can be so distorted that you'll see a much higher peak voltage, and multiple 0 point crossings. Could this confuse the charging system? - perhaps. However, this is highly unlikely in a house with single phase power, isolated from the utility and other disturbances through multiple utility transformers, and miles of cable.
You mentioned that you didn't have a high-end meter......you'll only see this if you can get a hold of a true RMS meter.
Just a thought.

This issue occurs at my house. I've also confirmed it at a friend's house, who also has a 14-50 outlet. As they're both homes, there's no elevators or anything like that. I do have a pool and solar panels, but this issue also occurs overnight when the car wakes up every 30 minutes or hour (I thought I turned off anything that would connect to it periodically, but I guess not), at which time all of those devices are off. As I'm in Florida, which has opted out of the current winter weather in the rest of the CONUS, even the A/C and Heater (lol) aren't running overnight.

A good scope would definitely be helpful. I was reading a thread last night about how the 3/Y models were having charging issues late last year with certain dirty power scenarios.

I also have a generator with a 30A connector. I don't have the correct adapter for my UMC, but I guess I could connect it to the house and see what happens (it's funny when you think about me using my entire house to convert from a 30A connector to a 14-50).
 

DMC-Orangeville

85D and John Deere 5100E
Feb 14, 2015
942
1,174
Orangeville ON Canada
This issue occurs at my house. I've also confirmed it at a friend's house, who also has a 14-50 outlet. As they're both homes, there's no elevators or anything like that. I do have a pool and solar panels, but this issue also occurs overnight when the car wakes up every 30 minutes or hour (I thought I turned off anything that would connect to it periodically, but I guess not), at which time all of those devices are off. As I'm in Florida, which has opted out of the current winter weather in the rest of the CONUS, even the A/C and Heater (lol) aren't running overnight.

A good scope would definitely be helpful. I was reading a thread last night about how the 3/Y models were having charging issues late last year with certain dirty power scenarios.

I also have a generator with a 30A connector. I don't have the correct adapter for my UMC, but I guess I could connect it to the house and see what happens (it's funny when you think about me using my entire house to convert from a 30A connector to a 14-50).
Electronic devices that produce DC power from AC are the most common producers of odd order harmonics. Most of the solar battery charging (eg Powerwall) has decent filtering in place, so I doubt it's your solar. BTW - Generators generally produce a square wave, or a modified sine wave, that is often not compatible with your Tesla charging system. Be cautious with that.

RE CONUS: I'm in Canada - 50 miles north-west of Toronto, in the snow belt. We got 8 inches of snow last night and it was 4F this morning when I cleared it. Unlike Texas, I'm prepared
IMG_0185.JPG
 
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TMoore

Member
Dec 23, 2020
30
2
West Melbourne, FL
Electronic devices that produce DC power from AC are the most common producers of odd order harmonics. Most of the solar battery charging (eg Powerwall) has decent filtering in place, so I doubt it's your solar. BTW - Generators generally produce a square wave, or a modified sine wave, that is often not compatible with your Tesla charging system. Be cautious with that.

I decided to try a test to see if anything in the house is generating interference, so I turned off all of the breakers except for the 175A main breaker and the 50A breaker that feeds the 14-50 outlet. Unfortunately, the car still threw the same error, so that definitely rules out anything on the house. I suppose the power from the grid could have some noise on it, but I'd be a scope or something to be able to look at the signal.

My other thought is to host go ahead and get a Wall Connector and plug it into the 14-50 with a 15A range cord. That'll only give me 40A of charging, but the other HPWCs I've tried seem to work better with the car.

Does anyone know if the wall connector has any additional filtering over the UMC?
 

Lloyd

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Jan 12, 2011
6,334
2,200
San Luis Obispo, CA
I had in instance with an early roadster in 2009 when it was trying to charge at my house it could not for the same reason. Voltage measured stable. PGE came out and found that there was a CoGen plant nearby that was throwing momentary spikes onto the grid. Not a problem for most appliances etc, but the Tesla refused to accept the 'dirty power'. PG&E subsequently sent me a copy of the Cease and Decsist order for the CoGen activity. The problem went away and has not returned. Something else to check out.
 

TMoore

Member
Dec 23, 2020
30
2
West Melbourne, FL
I had in instance with an early roadster in 2009 when it was trying to charge at my house it could not for the same reason. Voltage measured stable. PGE came out and found that there was a CoGen plant nearby that was throwing momentary spikes onto the grid. Not a problem for most appliances etc, but the Tesla refused to accept the 'dirty power'. PG&E subsequently sent me a copy of the Cease and Decsist order for the CoGen activity. The problem went away and has not returned. Something else to check out.

Based on this, I decided to call the power company to see if they would come out and look at the power coming into the house. Apparently, the first step is for them to come out and perform a basic check to ensure that the voltage at the meter is correct. If so, turn they'll escalate it to another quality group that can supposedly perform more advanced diagnostics. We'll see what happens.
 

Meros

Member
Apr 12, 2016
27
39
Fort Collins, CO
I have 90D built in June 2016 that is throwing similar errors. I found this thread by searching for CHG_f018. Car ramps up to 24 amps, pauses for a second, then creeps up to 29, then throws an error and drops back down to 24. Car still charges, just slower. This started happening for no apparent reason and my charge setup hasn’t changed for years. I have a Gen 2 HPWC on a 50 amp circuit and configured at 40 amps. It has worked fine until now. Unfortunately, I suspect that one of the onboard charger modules has gone bad. I also own a Model 3 and a second wall connector, so I’m going to try the other connector today. I’m out of warranty, so I might just limp along with 24 amps. TMoore, did your power company ever come out to run tests? Any update?
 

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TMoore

Member
Dec 23, 2020
30
2
West Melbourne, FL
I have 90D built in June 2016 that is throwing similar errors. I found this thread by searching for CHG_f018. Car ramps up to 24 amps, pauses for a second, then creeps up to 29, then throws an error and drops back down to 24. Car still charges, just slower. This started happening for no apparent reason and my charge setup hasn’t changed for years. I have a Gen 2 HPWC on a 50 amp circuit and configured at 40 amps. It has worked fine until now. Unfortunately, I suspect that one of the onboard charger modules has gone bad. I also own a Model 3 and a second wall connector, so I’m going to try the other connector today. I’m out of warranty, so I might just limp along with 24 amps. TMoore, did your power company ever come out to run tests? Any update?
Florida Power and Light did come out, but they only performed a basic check of the power coming into the house and didn't find anything.

I took it back to the SC, and they looked at it some more, but still couldn't find and issues.

I ended up installing a gen 3 wall connector since it seemed to work with the other two wall connectors I had tried, but that didn't fix it either. The other wall connectors were earlier generations, so that could be another piece of information.

Since yours happens after it's already ramped up the current, whereas mine happens in the "Preparing to charge" state, it's probably a different issue, but could be related.
 

ShawnA

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Nov 13, 2017
978
710
Edwardsburg, MI
Hi @TMoore ,

Did you ever try a HPWC at the Tesla Service Center???
You may be surprised to see that they too are wired for 208 Volts.
It may or may not show anything related to your problem...

I have been surprised in my 3 long road trips that every HPWC
I encountered as Destination Chargers were ALL wired at 208 Volts...
At major hotels like Hampton Inn and Homewood Suites...
Only consideration for me is the 86% charge speed compared to 240 Volts.

Good luck,

Shawn

Edit: Did you ever try any UMC at Tesla Service Center on your car - regardless of voltage???
It would be interesting if it failed at their site on their voltage...
 
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TMoore

Member
Dec 23, 2020
30
2
West Melbourne, FL
Did you ever try any UMC at Tesla Service Center on your car - regardless of voltage???
It would be interesting if it failed at their site on their voltage...
Yes. That's when we discovered that they have 208V and not 240V.

The power company came out last week and installed a monitoring device between the meter and the house. I spoke with one of their engineers this morning, and he couldn't find anything wrong. He did notice a device turning on every 27 minutes or so that was causing some noise, but we think it's probably the battery backup I have on one of my computers. Even so, that wouldn't explain the issue I'm having when the car first starts to draw power from the charger.

The local SC sent out their mobile technician this morning with their P90D service car. I showed him the issue with my car and then we plugged in his, which didn't exhibit any issues and started charging immediately. He called the shop foreman who started going on again about the voltage being too high at the house (it was 243-244 as displayed in both cars), so I promptly shut that down since it didn't happen with their service car. The technician recommended replacing the charging port on the car to see if that resolves the issue. Hopefully they'll stop arguing that it's my house now, but probably not.
 

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