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Charging Raven Long Range on HPWC

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Just got our HPWC installed on a 60amp circuit and wanted to share since we didn’t see any other posts specially on this. We are getting 34 miles/hr on 48amps charge rate which is slightly higher than what the HPWC page says about the Model X, most likely due to higher efficiency of the raven models.

4CA14794-BE92-4853-8413-0064D9305A02.png
 
Just got our HPWC installed on a 60amp circuit and wanted to share since we didn’t see any other posts specially on this. We are getting 34 miles/hr on 48amps charge rate which is slightly higher than what the HPWC page says about the Model X, most likely due to higher efficiency of the raven models.

If you configure your car to display Energy rather than Miles, the charging rate changes from Mph to actual Kilowatts. Much easier number to get your hands around.
 
Would you be able to do a quick test. Checking to see if doing the Wall Connector is worth it over a 14-50.

When you precondition with both AC and then also heat. How many miles or KWH are being added to the car with the 48AMP Wall Connector.

I’ve charger at level 2 chargers in the 30AMP ish power and when heat and AC are running it doesn’t add enough power to the vehicle to keep adding range or at least avoiding range decrease
 
Would you be able to do a quick test. Checking to see if doing the Wall Connector is worth it over a 14-50.

When you precondition with both AC and then also heat. How many miles or KWH are being added to the car with the 48AMP Wall Connector.

I’ve charger at level 2 chargers in the 30AMP ish power and when heat and AC are running it doesn’t add enough power to the vehicle to keep adding range or at least avoiding range decrease
That seems incorrect. Just yesterday, I was plugged into a public charger at 240v/24a, and had the A/C on. It was about 96F outside and the X was in the sun. Even in those conditions, I was still gaining range.
 
If you configure your car to display Energy rather than Miles, the charging rate changes from Mph to actual Kilowatts. Much easier number to get your hands around.
I guess that is true for some people depending on how your brain is wired, but not for me. I prefer miles. If I start seeing signs that read 80 kWh or 22% to Los Angeles then I might change my mind :) Glad that Tesla allows both.
 
When you precondition with both AC and then also heat. How many miles or KWH are being added to the car with the 48AMP Wall Connector.

With a 60 amp circuit to a properly configured HPWC you will get nominally 48*240 = 11.520 kW.
With a 14-50R into which a HPWC is plugged you will get nominally 40*240 = 9.6 kW
With a 14_50R with mobile charger you will get nominally 32*240 = 7.68 kW

If the voltage is 5% higher you will get an increase of 5% in the available charging power and conversely. This may have something to do with OP's observation. If his line voltage is 5% higher than 240 he would get over 1.5 extra miles per hour. Note that voltage that high (252 V) would be unlikely. I see voltages over 248 but only one percent of the time. My median voltage is 245.5 so I should get 2.3% higher mileage added per hour of charge time half the time.

I’ve charger at level 2 chargers in the 30AMP ish power and when heat and AC are running it doesn’t add enough power to the vehicle to keep adding range or at least avoiding range decrease
Something wrong here. A 30 amp level two charger connected to a bi-phase feeder should give you 30*240 = 7.2 kW but if you are in a commercial setting it may be across two legs of a 3-phase system giving 230 V or a low as 208 V implying power to the car charger of 6.9 or 6.24 kW. Both of those are well above the demand of the heater or A/C which take perhaps 2 kW and cycle on and off once the set point is reached. That leaves at least 4 kW to charge the battery. I have seen it posted that Level 1 chargers can't keep up with the battery warming requirements in cold weather but with a level 2 (208 - 240 V) system there is a problem if it can't charge on 30 A.

Note that the trailer park 30A outlet may look like a 240 V receptacle but it isn't. It's actually 120 so the maximum available is 3.6 kW. Getting more marginal but there still should be enough though the charge would not be speedy.
 
With a 60 amp circuit to a properly configured HPWC you will get nominally 48*240 = 11.520 kW.
With a 14-50R into which a HPWC is plugged you will get nominally 40*240 = 9.6 kW
With a 14_50R with mobile charger you will get nominally 32*240 = 7.68 kW

If the voltage is 5% higher you will get an increase of 5% in the available charging power and conversely. This may have something to do with OP's observation. If his line voltage is 5% higher than 240 he would get over 1.5 extra miles per hour. Note that voltage that high (252 V) would be unlikely. I see voltages over 248 but only one percent of the time. My median voltage is 245.5 so I should get 2.3% higher mileage added per hour of charge time half the time.

Something wrong here. A 30 amp level two charger connected to a bi-phase feeder should give you 30*240 = 7.2 kW but if you are in a commercial setting it may be across two legs of a 3-phase system giving 230 V or a low as 208 V implying power to the car charger of 6.9 or 6.24 kW. Both of those are well above the demand of the heater or A/C which take perhaps 2 kW and cycle on and off once the set point is reached. That leaves at least 4 kW to charge the battery. I have seen it posted that Level 1 chargers can't keep up with the battery warming requirements in cold weather but with a level 2 (208 - 240 V) system there is a problem if it can't charge on 30 A.

Note that the trailer park 30A outlet may look like a 240 V receptacle but it isn't. It's actually 120 so the maximum available is 3.6 kW. Getting more marginal but there still should be enough though the charge would not be speedy.


To be exact it was a Volta level 2 charger at 32AMps. AC and heat would drop added range to 0.

The reason why i ask is because I’m between doing a Nema 14-50 which would charge at 40AMPs but living in Chicago both preconditioning in winter and summer is a big deal. The second less favorable option is doing a HPWC at 48AMPs if the 40AMp can’t keep up with adding range while AC and heat are running
 
With a 60 amp circuit to a properly configured HPWC you will get nominally 48*240 = 11.520 kW.
With a 14-50R into which a HPWC is plugged you will get nominally 40*240 = 9.6 kW
With a 14_50R with mobile charger you will get nominally 32*240 = 7.68 kW

If the voltage is 5% higher you will get an increase of 5% in the available charging power and conversely. This may have something to do with OP's observation. If his line voltage is 5% higher than 240 he would get over 1.5 extra miles per hour. Note that voltage that high (252 V) would be unlikely. I see voltages over 248 but only one percent of the time. My median voltage is 245.5 so I should get 2.3% higher mileage added per hour of charge time half the time.

Something wrong here. A 30 amp level two charger connected to a bi-phase feeder should give you 30*240 = 7.2 kW but if you are in a commercial setting it may be across two legs of a 3-phase system giving 230 V or a low as 208 V implying power to the car charger of 6.9 or 6.24 kW. Both of those are well above the demand of the heater or A/C which take perhaps 2 kW and cycle on and off once the set point is reached. That leaves at least 4 kW to charge the battery. I have seen it posted that Level 1 chargers can't keep up with the battery warming requirements in cold weather but with a level 2 (208 - 240 V) system there is a problem if it can't charge on 30 A.

Note that the trailer park 30A outlet may look like a 240 V receptacle but it isn't. It's actually 120 so the maximum available is 3.6 kW. Getting more marginal but there still should be enough though the charge would not be speedy.

A.C. can peak over 6kW during initial cooldown on a hot day.

I don't think I've seen it average more than about a kilowatt over the long term, though.
 
To be exact it was a Volta level 2 charger at 32AMps. AC and heat would drop added range to 0.
It must be defective. Were it really delivering 32 amps at 240 V the car would be getting 7.6 kW. Neither the heater nor the A/C draws that much thus there will be some left over to charge the battery if the EVSE is really delivering 7.6 kW. The cabin heater typically draws a couple of hundred watts once the cabin comes to equilibrium. The battery heater is reputedly rated 4 kW and it too would not run at its peak rating. Thus you should have a couple of kW at least left over for the battery. 1 kW puts about 3 miles per hour into an X100. Note that I am posting this from the perspective of a guy whose spends the (relative to Chicago) winter in Virginia and the summer in Quebec where we only occasionally precondition the car (if it has been sitting in the hot sun).

Just to give you an idea about the A/C: My car is charging at 239V*40A = 9.56 kW and reports that it is gaining 25 mph. If I turn the air conditioning on and turn it way down to 65 (from 80 at the start), the mileage gain plummets to 16 mph. That means that approximately (16/25)*9.56 = 6.11 kW is now going to charge the battery and the other (9.56 - 6.11) = 3.45 kW are going to the A/C. But within 5 minutes the car reports the cabin temperature at the set point and the range accumulating at 23 mpH meaning only about 650 W going to the A/C.

You need to check up how much power your car is actually drawing when preconditioning. At least look at what the display says in the car during these periods. If it reads 32A consumed and 0 mph added then take it to an SC.

The reason why i ask is because I’m between doing a Nema 14-50 which would charge at 40AMPs
It will charge at 40 A if a corded HPWC is plugged into it but those don't seem to be available any more. With the "charger" that came with the car it will only charge at 32 A.

The second less favorable option is doing a HPWC at 48AMPs if the 40AMp can’t keep up with adding range while AC and heat are running
If you are going to have an electrician out to modify the panel and pull new wire you might as well, given this, go with the hard wired HPLC and get the extra 8 amps (relative to a corded HPWC ~ 6 mph more) or 16 (relative to a 14-50R with the mobile charger ~ 12 mpH). This seems a worthwhile thing to do whether you get the Volta charger fixed or not.



...but living in Chicago both preconditioning in winter and summer is a big deal.
I think you are over doing it. It only takes the heater a few minutes to heat a really cold soaked car up to comfortable temperature. Why heat it at other times? I'm guessing that there is no need to run the battery heater under these conditions for the sake of charging as the level two charger only provides a few kW which the battery ought to be able to accept even when it is quite cold. But as I don't know any of the details I think I'll shut up and hope people with actual experience with outdoor, cold weather, level two charging experience chime in.

If the car has been sitting outside in the sun for hours it only needs about 5 minutes preconditioning to be nice and cool inside. Thus there is no reason to run the air conditioner for longer times than that.

You might want to try the mobile charger plugged into a range outlet (using the included 14-50P adapter that comes with the car) as it also allows the car to draw 32 A. If this isn't convenient at home then you could always go to a camp ground and try it there. Use an app like Stats to determine the mile accumulation rate. If everything seems OK with the mobile then that condemns the Volta unit for sure.
 
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For more perspective on the A/C draw here is what happened when I put my X in the sun, let it warm up to 90 °F inside and fired off the A/C set to 65 °F.
AC1.jpg
Note that at 9 minutes after initiation the cabin temperature readout was 65 °F but the A/C was still drawing 1.8 kW. This is power into the rectifier/boost converter so the actual DC taken by the compressor/fan is probably 85% of this. In the context of this thread, however, we are interested in the power draw from the wall - not the battery.

Eventually the draw settles down as shown in this graph to 1 - 1.2 kW with a very high duty cycle.
ACB.jpg
 
There is some wrong information about power levels getting spread in this thread.

or a low as 208 V implying power to the car charger of 6.9 or 6.24 kW. Both of those are well above the demand of
Different answers:
the heater
No
Yes

It's correct that air conditioning couldn't use up the full 6-7kW of power, but heating easily can.

It must be defective. Were it really delivering 32 amps at 240 V the car would be getting 7.6 kW. Neither the heater nor the A/C draws that much thus there will be some left over to charge the battery if the EVSE is really delivering 7.6 kW.
That's not quite true, and plenty of people have seen it. You said "neither", but you're forgetting both. On the Model S and X, there are separate battery heaters and cabin HVAC heaters, and each can draw 6kW, for a total of 12kW. So yes, if the whole car is overnight frozen, and you go to try to charge and run interior preconditioning, it can be 0 miles added to the car and even losing range for probably 5-10+ minutes. Then, when the cabin is near temp and that heater lowers power, it will still be about 0 miles added for another 20+ minutes or more as the battery heater still has to run for a while.

A.C. can peak over 6kW during initial cooldown on a hot day.
No, the A/C certainly doesn't go that high. I see that @ajdelange has a graph of it--thanks. That's more like what I was thinking--about 3 to 4 kW.
 
No, the A/C certainly doesn't go that high. I see that @ajdelange has a graph of it--thanks. That's more like what I was thinking--about 3 to 4 kW.

Tesla Remote routinely shows 6 kW of draw and sometimes 7 kW when I precondition before heading home from work on a hot summer day when the car has been soaking for hours at near triple digits.

What makes you believe this is wrong or not possible?
 
I’ve charger at level 2 chargers in the 30AMP ish power and when heat and AC are running it doesn’t add enough power to the vehicle to keep adding range or at least avoiding range decrease

I interpreted this to mean that he is unable to charge his car from a 32 A charger when it is either hot or cold out. I think we all agree that, with respect to the warm weather, very slow or no charging should not last for more than a few minutes.

I didn't quite forget the battery heater. I just opined that since the function of the battery heater is to warm the battery to the point where it can safely accept super charger current and that since 32 A ( which means probably about 28A DC to the battery) is pretty puny with respect to SC current, the battery heater wouldn't operate when charging from such a station. But I admitted that I don't know much about charging outdoors in Chicago (or Quebec) for a good reason. I hate cold. Anyway, lets assume that the battery heater does come on. Eventually it will warm the battery to close to the BMS's SP and the power demanded of the battery heater will drop just as the cabin heater's demand will drop. It was suggested in No. 16 that this might take 20 minutes. Let's assume that this is the case. After 20 minutes the battery should start to charge. If it doesn't there is something wrong with the car or the EVSE.

I suggested that Benihect try to get some measurements to help him diagnose the problem. I would add to the ones that I made in previous posts that he approach the charging station with the car cabin warm and after a drive long enough that he is getting full regen. At that time the cabin heater should be running at its equilibrium level and the battery heater should be off (though it may come back on as the battery cools during the charging session.
 
Thanks everyone for the insights. It was a free public charger. A Volta. I experience going from 20 plus miles of added range in a Tesla Model 3 to 0 miles of range added when I turned the heater on.

I don’t use that charger consistently. In fact right now I’m using the standard 120 V outlet. But about to start my electrical project for going to Nema 14-50.

Today in my model X i was able to test a destination charger 48AMPs it’s 105 degrees in Chicago. At 48AMPs the charger was feeding 209V of power and I was running AC on auto 72 degrees. The added range dropped from 26 miles an hour when AC was off to 17-19 miles of range added when the AC was turned on.

Also understand that the 209V was low and I’d likely get a higher volt and therefore more range added per hour vs this comparison.

I think my experience has pushed me towards doing a Tesla Wall connecter vs a 14-50. I plan on turning on cabin overheat protection and smart preconditioning or downloading one of the various Tesla task apps to program it.

I have a 16 month old toddler it’s not fun getting into an extremely hot or cold car with him as it sets his mood for the ride
 
... it’s 105 degrees in Chicago.
Ick!

At 48AMPs the charger was feeding 209V of power and I was running AC on auto 72 degrees. The added range dropped from 26 miles an hour when AC was off
So that's 48*209 = 10kW for a rate of 48*209/26 = 386 W/mi primary power which is, at 85% efficiency, about 328 wH/mi to/from the battery which is about right.

...to 17-19 miles of range added when the AC was turned on.
That implies
17*386 = 5.6 kw to 19*386 = 7.3 kW going to the battery which means the AC is taking 3.7 - 4.4 kW which seems high but then 105 ° is an awfully high temperature too!


Also understand that the 209V was low and I’d likely get a higher volt and therefore more range added per hour vs this comparison.
Yes, that HPWC is connected to a 3ø 120Y/208 V system (or the utility has gone into "brown out"). Normal residence hookups are 120/240 biphase and deliver 240 V to an HPWC but large apartment buildings, condo complexes... may be 120Y/208.


I think my experience has pushed me towards doing a Tesla Wall connecter vs a 14-50.
I don't think you'll regret that decision.