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Charging the Roadster
- Thread starter malcolm
- Start date
tomsax
Member
OK, that makes sense. I should have realized that. Is there support for that outlet with the universal connector?
If you're going to buy a universal connector and wire a 240-volt circuit, NEMA 14-50's are pretty cheap, under $10 at Home Depot.
Although 14-50's are not expensive, that's not the major concern IMO. Until most people have charging stations in their homes, I'm looking for something which is easy to install, not a stress on the total power available to the house, but which is enough for credible overnight charging. 6-20 means you can use 12/2 wire which is easy to manage (compared with 6/3 for a 14-50) and a two pole 20 A breaker isn't going to add too much load onto the house as a whole. I have friend who lives about 130 mi from me and it would be nice to overnight charge when I visit. I suppose installing a 14-50 with a smaller breaker is an option, but that seems like a bad idea. The outlet should match the wiring. There is an adaptor for 6-20 for the universal connector. The other point is that it is easy to connect and disconnect. The 14-50 requires a good tug to remove. If I'm taking that universal connector to a number of properties, an easy plug/outlet, which can stand up to many connects and disconnects is a plus. Someday every house may have a J1772 and the Roadster will have a way to use that. But that day hasn't come yet.
I note that people here mention charging at lower amperages. It just seems like if your everyday charging is at 240v 16A maybe that should be your everyday connector?
I note that people here mention charging at lower amperages. It just seems like if your everyday charging is at 240v 16A maybe that should be your everyday connector?
Tdave
Member
It cost me $110 to have a 14-50 outlet installed in my garage, properly with the correct breaker. What's the big deal? You talk about the strain and load on the house as a whole. What's wrong with load? If you have 200 amp service, you likely have plenty to spare.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Wire is labeled by the number of conductors, not including ground. 12-2 is Line 1, Line 2, and Ground. 12-3 is L1, L2, Neutral, and Ground.
That's true of non-metallic cable (Romex) and other building cables, where you will see designations such as "12-2 W/G" (12-2 with grounding wire), but it is not generally true of appliance cords. See, for instance,
http://www.awcwire.com/ProductSpec.aspx?id=Type-SOW-SO
200 A service would be a dream. In the S.F. Bay Area most older homes have 100 A. Mine does. Ten years ago I installed a hot tub/spa which needs 30 A. Then my wife needed a 50A kiln. Luckily, she doesn't need the kiln anymore so I can charge the roadster. (Kiln used a 6-50 outlet, so with the universal charger I was already able to charge the car.) I had my kitchen remodeled 18 months ago and needed new breakers to bring myself up to code. That triggered a whole panel replacement because my existing panel (Federal Pacific?) lost it's UL approval and no new breakers were being sold.
When there is talk about the impact on the grid of electric cars, there isn't talk about how much work it can be for an older property to have a charger installed. Older houses were not built anticipating the level of electrical usage we are now at and EVs are going to stress that further. I think my panel replacement and new kitchen electrical cost about $8000.
When there is talk about the impact on the grid of electric cars, there isn't talk about how much work it can be for an older property to have a charger installed. Older houses were not built anticipating the level of electrical usage we are now at and EVs are going to stress that further. I think my panel replacement and new kitchen electrical cost about $8000.
tomsax
Member
To be fair, you did a lot more than add an EV. If your house has an air conditioner, an electric dryer, or an electric range or oven, then adding an EV that you charge at night when you're not using any of those items doesn't add anything to your peak load.
People will have a broad range of costs to install an EV, but $8,000 is far outside the norm. We had breaker slots available in our panel so it cost us just $1,500 to install two EV chargers (30A circuit for a RAV4-EV and 90A circuit for the Roadster), with an in-line electric meter for each so we can monitor wall-to-wheel efficiency.
kgb
Member
Sounds like some of you have specialized knowledge about these kinds of circuits. Whereas I feel comfortable working with 120V, I don't feel comfortable working with 220V. My plan was to use an electrician. So, that being said, do any of you have suggestions for me when dealing with an electrician. Things I could say to help him do his job. Perhaps something to look out for to see if he is trying to take advantage of me.
I can wire basic circuits, but I have yet to open a breaker box... and I think my box is that old federal pacific brand. It is an old house and I think I remember reading the word "pacific" on my breaker box. I'm not sure I would know what to do once I open the box. Is it the breaker that determines the voltage? How do you selected the voltage for the circuit you are putting in? If it is not too expensive, I'd rather have the electrician do it right.
I can wire basic circuits, but I have yet to open a breaker box... and I think my box is that old federal pacific brand. It is an old house and I think I remember reading the word "pacific" on my breaker box. I'm not sure I would know what to do once I open the box. Is it the breaker that determines the voltage? How do you selected the voltage for the circuit you are putting in? If it is not too expensive, I'd rather have the electrician do it right.
tomsax
Member
KGB,
240V isn't much more difficult that 120V. I don't know what your setup is, but typically a home panel is wired with ground, neutral and two hots. If you run the neutral and either hot to an outlet or appliance, you get 120V. If you put a load across both hots, you get 240V.
To add a new 120V circuit, you add a new breaker and run the hot output from that plus neutral and ground to the outlet.
To add a new 240V circuit, you add two breakers, one on each of the two hot lines. In my panel, the breakers slots alternate back and forth between the two hots, so adding a pair of adjacent breakers gives you the two different hot lines.
To wire a NEMA 14-50, you just run all four wires (ground, neutral and two hots) and hook them up to the right pins. This allows an appliance to pull 240V across the two hots, or pull 120V across a hot and neutral, or even pull two 120V loads, one on each breaker. Wiring an HPC is similar, except the HPC doesn't need the neutral, just the ground and two hots.
After watching our electrician wire up our RAV4 charger, I have no problem working inside the panel for either 120V or 240V to do simple things like replace a failed breaker. I don't know the details of the electrical code, getting permits, the rules for selecting wire gauge based on current and run length, or best practices for running conduits, etc., so I'll continue hiring electricians to do new runs. But really, any reasonably competent electrician can do the wiring for an EV charger.
240V isn't much more difficult that 120V. I don't know what your setup is, but typically a home panel is wired with ground, neutral and two hots. If you run the neutral and either hot to an outlet or appliance, you get 120V. If you put a load across both hots, you get 240V.
To add a new 120V circuit, you add a new breaker and run the hot output from that plus neutral and ground to the outlet.
To add a new 240V circuit, you add two breakers, one on each of the two hot lines. In my panel, the breakers slots alternate back and forth between the two hots, so adding a pair of adjacent breakers gives you the two different hot lines.
To wire a NEMA 14-50, you just run all four wires (ground, neutral and two hots) and hook them up to the right pins. This allows an appliance to pull 240V across the two hots, or pull 120V across a hot and neutral, or even pull two 120V loads, one on each breaker. Wiring an HPC is similar, except the HPC doesn't need the neutral, just the ground and two hots.
After watching our electrician wire up our RAV4 charger, I have no problem working inside the panel for either 120V or 240V to do simple things like replace a failed breaker. I don't know the details of the electrical code, getting permits, the rules for selecting wire gauge based on current and run length, or best practices for running conduits, etc., so I'll continue hiring electricians to do new runs. But really, any reasonably competent electrician can do the wiring for an EV charger.
kgb
Member
Tom,
Thanks. that makes a lot of sense. I am at least going to get a quote. If the quote is too high, then I'll just do it.
Thanks. that makes a lot of sense. I am at least going to get a quote. If the quote is too high, then I'll just do it.
Waaay back Martin posted details about charger signalling on his now defunct blog. Did anybody per chance keep a copy of that? I'm looking for the nitty gritty on how the Roadster knows the max charge (amps) it can draw. I seem to remember something with pulses but am in the dark about voltages, timing, etc.
There should be a universal law against taking down blogs and web pages in general.
There should be a universal law against taking down blogs and web pages in general.
EV_de
Model SP10/XP9 EU ZOE#47
uploaded here:
ftp://ftp.cs.cornell.edu/incoming/TheRoadsterFoundryMobileCharger.rar
...sorry can't be downloaded , after upload ....
ftp://ftp.cs.cornell.edu/incoming/TheRoadsterFoundryMobileCharger.rar
...sorry can't be downloaded , after upload ....
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kgb
Member
Scott, the install is 12 inches from the breaker box... on the same side of the wall and everything. I have done some research, and I am feeling more and more confident. Basically, I need 6 ga wire (to handle the 50A). The wiring is bare=ground, white=common, Red & Black=live. I just pop in the breaker and connect the wire to the outlet. (Of course I will run the wire in a short channel). I am out of town, but when I get back, I will examine the equipment and post more questions. Perhaps I may post pictures of my attempt to help similarly situated EV owners in the future.
In addition to the outside info I found, there is another thread here in which the wiring is discussed in some detail.
TMC thread with more info
How to wire a NEMA 14-50 outlet
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Waaay back Martin posted details about charger signalling on his now defunct blog. Did anybody per chance keep a copy of that? I'm looking for the nitty gritty on how the Roadster knows the max charge (amps) it can draw. I seem to remember something with pulses but am in the dark about voltages, timing, etc.
There should be a universal law against taking down blogs and web pages in general.
If you know the URL, try this site: http://www.archive.org/web/web.php they may have an archived version.
Greetings,
David
Not if the site (blogger?) had robots.txt at the time, which it did (probably still does).
The info is somewhere here though... in a better format than my copy... which I won't post unless I have too... which shouldn't be the case... cuz it's here somewhere
I want to announce I recently created a "user-created" map on Google and placed the public Tesla chargers I've heard of on it. EvChargerNews is great, but it does not work well on my Android phone so this user-created map can be used as a "layer" with Google maps on Android phones. I've picked up stations from several sources. In paticular, I'm curious about a possible charger at CARB in El Monte, CA. It does look like there is a charger there using Google Street view. There are surprisingly few chargers around LA. Anyhow, the map is "Tesla Charging Locations". There are other user-created maps like "Tesla Chargers" and "Tesla Charging Stations". It takes a bit of work to get to this... On Google Maps there is a search options pull down and you should select "user-created" then search for these maps.
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