Charging times! It helps! ....

[CyberGus]

Few thing were beyond control, like HVAC can't be stopped, the refrigerator, sump pump etc can't be turned off during peak hours. Only thing we could control was the laundry, dishwasher and EV charging.

One of the biggest uses of electricity by a refrigerator is the heating element for defrosting the coil. It's typically run on a timer at regular intervals (approx 2x/day). Some people will temporarily disable it when on emergency power.

It would be a huge boon for TOU (and grid management generally) if refrigerators could plan this activity for off-peak hours. But IDK how they would coordinate that, unless they were "smart" and network-connected.

 

[Unclepaul]

Your Utility will have times when it is hard pressed to meet peak demand, and other times when they have lots of extra supply.

During regular business hours, when factories are running hard, air conditioning is being used etc, that is not a good time to be charging up your car.

In the cool of the evening, when factories have closed, the Sun has set and people are going to sleep, lots of electricity is available. A good time to charge.

For most regions, overnight is the best time to charge up your EV.

Only charging to 80% will generally give your battery a long life, while providing enough juice to get through your day.

If you are going on a long trip, that is the time to charge up to 100% so you maximize your first day's range.

 

[jkdman123]

exactly why I am scratching my head with TOU, AC running during the day is a disaster for attempting to move to TOU
also imagine chasing people in the house during the day to not use electricity...not fun
I have not met anyone that has people in the house during the day that have crushed it financially with TOU

One strategy regarding AC is to turn it down colder early in the day then let the temp coast up slowly during the peak rate hours so the AC doesn't run as much.

However, this assumes you have a well insulated house. I do not. For example, if it's 90 degrees outside, I can cool my house down to 65 degrees and it will keep the AC off about 5 mins longer than if I have it set at 75 degrees. Got blown insulation put in the attic and it made a *slight* difference. I think they either skimped or did a poor job installing the wall insulation when the house was built, so YMMV with that strategy.

 

[shyboy]

One strategy regarding AC is to turn it down colder early in the day then let the temp coast up slowly during the peak rate hours so the AC doesn't run as much.

However, this assumes you have a well insulated house. I do not. For example, if it's 90 degrees outside, I can cool my house down to 65 degrees and it will keep the AC off about 5 mins longer than if I have it set at 75 degrees. Got blown insulation put in the attic and it made a *slight* difference. I think they either skimped or did a poor job installing the wall insulation when the house was built, so YMMV with that strategy.

I had similar issue for my upstairs HVAC unit. during winter it kept my heating on almost all day/night and during summer, I had AC running 24/7.
I get the insulation rating checked but was told it may not helpful much due to I have high ceiling for almost half of the house upstairs so blown insulation probably only work where it can be blown (not the area of high ceiling, it has something like you put in between your studs or joists).

Anyway long story short, One smart contractor suggested to put 2 attic fans facing the sky (the one that make hole on your roof). this drastically improved my AC bill during the summer time. Before the attic fans, if I had 90 degree outside, I usually had 110 in the attic. after I put the fan, if there is 90 outside, I have 80 in the attic.

 

[afadeev]

Just found out that charging times makes a difference! Not Prices..but when folks take more electricity .... it helps us all!
WE pay for a certain charge but after an hour chatting with our electric association they would like us to charge at differing hours.
Makes sense?

No, not at all.

If the benefits are not significant enough for a utility company to incentivize the desired behavior through time-of-day pricing, then they are not significant.

WE usually just plug in the car but after talking with our COOP for charging, they would like us to charge when electric is lower.

Electric WHAT is lower?

Our company MVEA...is a community that folks actually have a VOTE on power. Not "shareholder" stuff but actual folks that can vote on where power and other issues are related to that. As a community, we CAN and DO, have a say on power.
Not entirely certain how it works but I would like to believe that our members can have a say.

If you are not sure how it works, then you have NO actual power.

I live in northern VA, my utility company offered the OffPeak / Peak charging plan.
The cost was 7cents off peak rate and 22 cents peak rate.
If I stay on my current plan my all time rate is 13cents.

If you own and run AC (basically 95+% of the US population), then peak/off-peak charging plans are a guaranteed looser.
We have a very similar variable rate charging plan in NJ, and it's a definite no-go. Maybe in Alaska?

Here is EV electricity consumption vs. household appliances, for comparison:

Some home appliances can use as much energy as electric vehicles

The most popular electric vehicles can use about as much electricity as some home appliances. Here’s how appliances and EVs compare.

www.verifythis.com

Yes that's why utilities that offer TOU plans offer lower rates at night, because those are off-peak hours, where the load is light, but the utility is making electricity. They're incentivizing people to use electricity at night, to relieve some of the grid strain during the day.

Electricity daily use patterns vary by time of the year, as well as geography.
The usage tends to be higher during the day vs. the night, but the amplitude of change varies enormously throughout the year (minimal in January, max in July).

Hourly electricity consumption varies throughout the day and across seasons

www.eia.gov

More detailed info here:

Electric vehicles and power consumption at home – an analysis of charging patterns in Norway in 2020

At Elvia, we believe that data and data-driven decision making is the way forward. As data scientist, we have an important role in this process, helping the analysis of available data to generate new insights. In this blog post, by using data gathered through smart meters, we provide key...

chrcoello.github.io

 

[kpanda17]

My utility’s tips:

But we knew these
The utilities want us to help them by moving our loads to mostly overnight, but they will make more money by faking out the regulators and confusing home owners
Sux
Get solar!!!

 

[ucmndd]

No, not at all.

If the benefits are not significant enough for a utility company to incentivize the desired behavior through time-of-day pricing, then they are not significant.

Small cooperatives are generally driven on principles of doing things for the common good and interest of everyone participating in the system. It’s kinda right there in the term.

There are ways to incentivize behavior that aren’t financial and they’re perfectly valid.

Changing a rate structure and/or potentially long-term power purchase agreements is not a simple thing to do for a small utility. Asking for voluntary participation in load reduction and time-shifting is a perfectly reasonable thing for a non-profit co-op to ask of its members. If it works, it saves everyone money. If it fails, then maybe you have to proceed to the next step.

 

[wwu123]

I live in northern VA, my utility company offered the OffPeak / Peak charging plan.
The cost was 7cents off peak rate and 22 cents peak rate.
If I stay on my current plan my all time rate is 13cents.

We tried hard to follow the self established rules not to use unnecessary power during peak hours. Few thing were beyond control, like HVAC can't be stopped, the refrigerator, sump pump etc can't be turned off during peak hours. Only thing we could control was the laundry, dishwasher and EV charging.

Upon seeing the first month comparison, we got $130 more than my usual bill.
Tried further hard by setting the thermostat by few degrees, but second month it was $158 more than usual bill.
I tried to opt-out but was told that if you optout during the month, it will take effect from the next billing cycle. so I end up in this plan for another month, which cost me another $120 more than my usual bill.

Lower rate for EV charging during night, might be very little difference on your bill. the huge hit is your other utilities, like HVAC/heating or other heavy appliances. It also depends on the weather temperature too, if one month you AC kicked in more, and its during peak hours, then you are screwed.

It may saved you few if you can turned off hvac during the peak time, in my case, everybody stays home, doing remote work, and turning off hvac is not an option for me.

TOU rates tend to be most punitive during summer afternoon/evenings, so it will cost more than flat rates in the summer months for sure if you run A/C a lot. But if you also use a fair amount of electricity year-round at off-peak times, may net some cost savings to have those lower off-peak rates the other 9 months of the year.

If you can, take a look at your monthly usage in the non-summer months from past bills, paying $0,07 instead of $0.13 is almost half, could be a net savings when you look over the entire year, rather than just judging by the two most extreme summer months. But it will vary by every household's individual seasonal usage patterns, whether TOU (time-of-use) can offer savings....

 

[shyboy]

TOU rates tend to be most punitive during summer afternoon/evenings, so it will cost more than flat rates in the summer months for sure if you run A/C a lot. But if you also use a fair amount of electricity year-round at off-peak times, may net some cost savings to have those lower off-peak rates the other 9 months of the year.

If you can, take a look at your monthly usage in the non-summer months from past bills, paying $0,07 instead of $0.13 is almost half, could be a net savings when you look over the entire year, rather than just judging by the two most extreme summer months. But it will vary by every household's individual seasonal usage patterns, whether TOU (time-of-use) can offer savings....

thank you, its a good point.
Unfortunately not gonna work for me either due to my heating is also on electric and my winter bill is worst than summer

 

[kpanda17]

Think this is a play by the utilities for a win win for them
Move our max loads to overnight
Jack rhe peak rates

 

[afadeev]

Small cooperatives are generally driven on principles of doing things for the common good and interest of everyone participating in the system. It’s kinda right there in the term.

Nonsense.
They run a businesses, not a hobby.
If they don't run it as a business, it will go OUT of business.

There are ways to incentivize behavior that aren’t financial and they’re perfectly valid.

Oh yeah, like what?
Communism, comrade?

Changing a rate structure and/or potentially long-term power purchase agreements is not a simple thing to do for a small utility.

Variable rate pricing, aligned with the desired usage pattern, is 100% within control of any company. It is as simple of a thing to do as time of day billing multiplier. A middle-school intern can make that change in billing code.

Asking for voluntary participation in load reduction and time-shifting is a perfectly reasonable thing for a non-profit co-op to ask of its members. If it works, it saves everyone money. If it fails, then maybe you have to proceed to the next step.

Yeah, good luck with that.
As OP stated, he can't even figure out what those clowns are asking of him.
"Perfectly reasonable" thing that no-one can understand. Priceless!

 

[ucmndd]

Nonsense.
They run a businesses, not a hobby.

So it seems you don’t actually understand the concept of a co-op.

That’s probably for the best, as given your super pleasant demeanor you’d make for an utterly insufferable member of one.

 

[jkdman123]

But we knew these

The utilities want us to help them by moving our loads to mostly overnight, but they will make more money by faking out the regulators and confusing home owners
Sux
Get solar!!!

The problem is solar and home batteries are not cheap, even with the rebates. Unless you have a pool/jacuzzi or other really high consumption, it takes years for it to pay off. And the electric companies shuck and jive so you almost have to overbuy when you get a system because they've shown that they have no problem jacking the rates into the stratosphere.

 

[kpanda17]

BTW, NY Metro PSEG warns
If you decide to change to ToU
You cannot return to the prior rate plan
Stacked deck

 

[kpanda17]

The problem is solar and home batteries are not cheap, even with the rebates. Unless you have a pool/jacuzzi or other really high consumption, it takes years for it to pay off. And the electric companies shuck and jive so you almost have to overbuy when you get a system because they've shown that they have no problem jacking the rates into the stratosphere.

We are in that with charging our EVs
My electric has doubled since having two EVs
Still way less than filling up gas for 2x ICE

 

[kpanda17]

WSJ story about Tesla solar buyer

Inside the Slow, Yet 'Incredible' Installation of a $78,000 Tesla Solar Roof

Long Island homeowner Winka Dubbeldam describes it as a tedious process that in the end helped lower her electric bill while maintaining the appearance of her Cape Cod-style home.

www.wsj.com

Sorry, most of the story is behind a paywall
Via Apple News full story

Inside the Slow, Yet ‘Incredible’ Installation of a $78,000 Tesla Solar Roof — The Wall Street Journal

Long Island homeowner Winka Dubbeldam describes a tedious process that in the end helped lower her electric bill while maintaining the appearance of her Cape Cod-style home

apple.news

Net ROI
$78K cost solar and power walls
$30K after rebates
Past monthly electric bill $600/month
ROI 4-5 years
I was surprised also
This has sparked my interest

 

[afadeev]

Past monthly electric bill $600/month
ROI 4-5 years

Past monthly electric bill of $600 / month?
What are they doing - an indoor pot farm with lighting year around?

 

[kpanda17]

Past monthly electric bill of $600 / month?
What are they doing - an indoor pot farm with lighting year around?

Mine is $300 and mid to small sized house with central AC and 2x EVs charging nightly
Not hard to hit these numbers
My guess is her house is big ~3K sq feet with AC and one or more EVs, she might have switched to heating via a heat pump also

If I goto Solar, wait until my new heating system is out of warranty (6 more years) or fails and change to a heat pump

 

[shyboy]

We are in that with charging our EVs
My electric has doubled since having two EVs
Still way less than filling up gas for 2x ICE

you have 85Kw battery in MYLR and about 65Kw in M3.
Lets calculate the worst case scenario. If you drive 300 miles everyday.
from 0% to 100% will cost you about $11 x 2EVs = $22 / day charge,

With normal driving maybe 100 /week each car, you should be paying $10 for two EVs / week

Compare you bills now vs before EVs, pay attention on the rates that you are paying now vs before.

There must be something else going on.

 

[jkdman123]

We are in that with charging our EVs
My electric has doubled since having two EVs
Still way less than filling up gas for 2x ICE

Depends a lot on where you live. Cost mismatch is one of the things that is gonna slow BEV adoption because the average Joe can't wrap their head around the massive differences to operate a BEV based on geography.

As an example, on my tiered electric plan, I pay about $0.45 per kWh (which I'm pretty sure has almost doubled in the last 5 yrs or so). I think I read another user here in El Paso on a TOU plan pays $0.005 (or half a cent!!) per kWh from midnight to 6:00 am.

So I pay 8900% more to charge my car than the person in El Paso!! This disparity can also be seen on road trips when supercharging in different locations that use different methods of charging (per kWh vs per min) that can lead to relatively massive differences in charging cost.

There are no 2 places in the country where the most expensive gas and the least expensive gas has an 8900% difference in price. Not even close. Granted, the oil companies have had over a hundred years to stabilize gasoline prices, so we need to give the electric prices time to stabilize too. But that problem is out there and not really being dealt with. And some utilities are charging more and more and reducing the ROI for solar which reduces the cost effectiveness of BEVs, and could actually push them to be more expensive to operate than ICE cars in some areas.