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I think among all the information I was reading in the blog itself and in the references made there, was a indirect quote from MH that the car which burnt down wasn't even the record-making car itself (aside from the same battery not being in it). So the poster appeared to know less than what might be his/her own blog...
... who of you guys speaks German? ...
There seem to be basically two claims of DBMScrolled over the history of this thread and you folks have done some digging yourself - good work. As far as my time allows it I can try to shed some light on dbm and their battery. But still have some questions myself, so can't answer everything...
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=250567&postcount=119The cost thing is another still open question. Until now there are at least 4 different sources about the cost. In my opinion the most likely is the article from an investment magazine where the exact cost is mentioned:
7000 Euro for an 26,88 kWh battery used in fork lifts. This seems to be backed by the guy from papstar (the company who bought the batteries). He said the battery costs about 4 times as much as a lead battery. But also take this with a grain of salt since this was in the middle of 2009 where the company was quite unknown to that point. Currently they are converting into a public (stock) company which will surely change the prices ...
The 1100$-1400$ claim came from Peter Hoffmann of the Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Letter but I highly doubt those numbers...
The only official number directly from the inventor is 7,20 Euro / 100 km which is about 10$ / 62 miles.
Sounds as if they are in negotiations. My guess is Mirko is trying to walk a fine line between getting himself a good contract while not locking up the technology so it could be stifled.Ofcourse the big question is - if they do have something very useful, why isn't any auto company working with them ?
There seem to be basically two claims of DBM
- High energy density : The maximum number you note (280 w/kg), seems quite achievable and not incredulous.
- Price per kwh : I've seen extremely low prices. Have you heard anything on this ?
Ofcourse the big question is - if they do have something very useful, why isn't any auto company working with them ?
7000 Euro for an 26,88 kWh battery used in fork lifts.
The only official number directly from the inventor is 7,20 Euro / 100 km which is about 10$ / 62 miles.
As copied by JRP3 the exact cost is not yet known. But as Mirko Hannemann (MH) stated once the price is about half of a Li-ion battery and in mass production will reduce the cost by 50% once more...
Auto company cooperation:
Since the succesfull tests of BAM and DEKRA the talks started again. Currently there are talking to Audi and BMW. With Audi they are planning some kind of a race car? But details are quite vague on that. Furthermore i would like to cite MH when asked by the press about their cautious attitute: (freely translated) "At the current size we have as a company today we have a strong necessity for know-how protection. [...] To not plainly give our know-how away we try to create the contracts to our advantage. And that is not always in the interest of the car companies. Additionally car companies have a great demand for independence to their suppliers. There are voices saying: "It can't only be Hannemann"[...]
True and true.The way the company is approaching this makes me sceptical. My guess is
- DBM doesn't have a commercial manufacturing plant. They seem to be making whatever they make in some kind of a lab.
- They don't have much money
In this case, what I'd do if I had some kind of a breakthough battery tech is to talk to multiple battery manufacturers and license the technology. Once the battery manufacturer of some repute get get the ball rolling, talk to multiple auto manufacturers about making vehicles with those batteries. Why would I talk to Audi or BMW if I can't produce batteries in volume (or may be I would talk to them because they aren't going to make vehicles in large numbers !).
Here in germany it is said that 1kwh costs about 1000 €.That is about $368/Kwh. Quite good. $500 is probably a good Li-ion price. The problem with this satement is that the Li-ion battery price varies so much - from $1,000 to $500 / kwh. Nissan themselfs have stated so many price points (depending on who is talking and how it is translated).
I've no idea what that means. Is that about operating cost (i.e. electricity cost to run 100 kms ?). Looks too high. To run 62 miles, you need about 15 kwh. What does $10/15 kwh mean ?
We pay under $400/Kwh for our Chinese LiFePO4 prismatics from CALB and TS, so $368 is not ground breaking, unless that's for an assembled pack. Isn't Tesla around $250/Kwh for cells?That is about $368/Kwh. Quite good. $500 is probably a good Li-ion price.
Here in germany it is said that 1kwh costs about 1000 €.
It was said by MH and its press speaker when asked about the price of the battery.
I think it is the price for the the charging cost and battery itself. What dbm tries to say is that the battery will be quite competetive when compared to gas/diesel powered cars. A car which needs 8 liter gas / 100 km costs about 13 Euro vs. 7,20 / 100km for an dbm battery powered car.
To charge the battery (for the 64,874 kwh car) costs about 3,56€ /100 km (0,25 cent/kwh) so the remaining 3,64€ are for the battery. But since the parameters of that calculation are not known (e.g. overall km of the battery) it is not possible to calculate the battery price...
Recently MH stated that up to ~200 people (paid on a fee-basis) assemble the batteries. (My guess is mostly by hand?) To establish Mass production it would take 9-12 month. Currently they are building some kind of manufacturing plant in the south-western part of germany. A customer of theirs is providing a 20.000 sqm hall. In 2011 they are able to produce about 50 MWh of batteries. (which should be about 73.100 single cells)
They don't have much money. They paid the development of the battery by themselves. Customers have to pay in advance for their batteries... I think that is one of the reasons they are now changing to a public stock company (AG).
Can't really compare low density Chinese LiFePO4 with this (if it is really 280w/kg). In other words, if the Chinese get hold of this technology they can sell the batteries for less than $400/Kwh ;-)We pay under $400/Kwh for our Chinese LiFePO4 prismatics from CALB and TS, so $368 is not ground breaking, unless that's for an assembled pack. Isn't Tesla around $250/Kwh for cells?
The record breaking car (called lekker mobile) was burned down in the fire. However the kolibri battery was not inside to that time. There is an official police report stating that it was arson since the fire emanated from at least 3 sources... Where does my blog state otherwise? Maybe you mix up the incident at papstar (only smoke) and the burn down of the warehouse...?