racerx2005
Member
Selling a Tesla with a yoke will be just as hard as selling a car with Carfax accident reported.
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is it poor design or intentional? I think objectively it was intentional... if you subjectively think it is a poor design that is your opinion which is fine, but the difference between subjective opinions and objective aspects is important.If the wheel is blocking the instrument cluster then the car/wheel/dashboard are suffer from poor design and there’s no compensating for poor engineering. Otherwise you’re spot on In your assessment.
Many people like to point out that ‘airplanes use yokes so therefore it must be a good idea.‘ If you’ve ever flown an airplane you’d know how ludicrous this statement is. Many airplanes also have sticks so maybe Elon could make a Model S with a stick instead of a yoke? Sarcasm aside, at the most basic level is the fact that the yoke in a plane doesn‘t turn past 90º, typically it doesn’t go past 45º, but beyond that cars are not planes. About the only similarity is they both have seats.
For non-Tesla owners (those who are new to Tesla), they Yoke is attractive. However, for current Tesla owners, I agree that the wheel is a must have for better/quicker re-sale.Selling a Tesla with a yoke will be just as hard as selling a car with Carfax accident reported.
Fair enough … I’m on my third Tesla, e.g. M3P, MYP and waiting on MSP delivery, evidently with traditional steering wheel.For non-Tesla owners (those who are new to Tesla), they Yoke is attractive. However, for current Tesla owners, I agree that the wheel is a must have for better/quicker re-sale.
I never owned a Tesla and just got mine, and I almost almost fell in the Yoke trap until I test drove both and asked several members here who tried both. Got the wheel and happy I did on every single turn and U-turn I make while letting the wheel slip through my hand.
I will take that bet. I will probably be selling mine in... 3 years? maybe 5. Maybe longer... I put ~30k miles on annually.Selling a Tesla with a yoke will be just as hard as selling a car with Carfax accident reported.
Obscuring essential gauges is objectively poor design. There is no subjectivity involved. If it was intentional then it goes beyond poor design into the realm of negligence.is it poor design or intentional? I think objectively it was intentional... if you subjectively think it is a poor design that is your opinion which is fine, but the difference between subjective opinions and objective aspects is important.
I have some hours under my belt, and I would say the similarity isn't necessarily that yoke is best; it has its' place. More importantly, as a pilot adapting to different systems/control methods becomes second nature. You learn how to adapt and learn new systems. THAT is the similarity. Want to drive a stick shift? learn how to and adapt. Want a car with a yoke? ok, learn how to use it. Learn the benefits and drawbacks and adapt. simple as that. Is it hands-down better or something? no way. Is it a functional and effective ergonomic control mechanism? yep.
Yeah, change to change isn't always a good thing, but there are reasons to abandon the old tried and true wheel.
What the Yoke does better: Easier entry/exit for taller people. forces good hand position. good visibility of gauge cluster (which you mentioned). Minimizes hand-over-hand turning if used properly. Looks way cooler.
Going stalkless ensures that hands are kept at 10/2, at least in my case, my thumbs are always around the buttons. I also don't like stalks... never did. for a turn signal... sure, that is ok. but for shifting wipers or w/e else? no thank you. I would like a center horn though.
The yoke with a wire system would be 100% better than the current, absolutely.
I am far from a "tesla can do no wrong person". I do think they did make two mistakes: people were not ready for this change, this should have been optional from the get-go, and they should have made it a variable turn with a steer by wire system. I can also go into SOOOOoooo many other issues the car has. But round wheel over yoke? nothing but personal preference and/or failure to adapt.
Ingress/egress is more due to the shorter/flatter bottom than it being a yoke specifically. Flat bottom wheels exist too.Yeah, change to change isn't always a good thing, but there are reasons to abandon the old tried and true wheel.
What the Yoke does better: Easier entry/exit for taller people. forces good hand position. good visibility of gauge cluster (which you mentioned). Minimizes hand-over-hand turning if used properly. Looks way cooler.
Going stalkless ensures that hands are kept at 10/2, at least in my case, my thumbs are always around the buttons. I also don't like stalks... never did. for a turn signal... sure, that is ok. but for shifting wipers or w/e else? no thank you. I would like a center horn though.
The yoke with a wire system would be 100% better than the current, absolutely.
I am far from a "tesla can do no wrong person". I do think they did make two mistakes: people were not ready for this change, this should have been optional from the get-go, and they should have made it a variable turn with a steer by wire system. I can also go into SOOOOoooo many other issues the car has. But round wheel over yoke? nothing but personal preference and/or failure to adapt.
Nope, it's worse since it's slightly wider overall and definitely wider at the bottom-left corner.Yeah, change to change isn't always a good thing, but there are reasons to abandon the old tried and true wheel.
What the Yoke does better: Easier entry/exit for taller people.
Again, no, especially during turns.forces good hand position.
For sure.good visibility of gauge cluster (which you mentioned).
Nope. Makes it much, much worse, especially during emergency maneuvers. I found myself steering with one or two fingers to avoid the nonsense of crossing my arms.Minimizes hand-over-hand turning if used properly.
Subjective, but I agree, it's certainly a discussion piece.Looks way cooler.
Nope. Actually, if, anything, it makes me use the blinkers LESS. It's basically BMW-mode.Going stalkless ensures that hands are kept at 10/2, at least in my case, my thumbs are always around the buttons.
Very much so.The yoke with a wire system would be 100% better than the current, absolutely.
It's objectively worse - far from personal preference, but any control device in which you need to cross your arms to make a turn is a failure. A control device that leaves you grasping for air in the middle of a turn is a failure. A device in which the turn signals can be crossed up - the lower button is now the right turn signal, for example, during a U-turn or exiting a parking lot - is a failure.But round wheel over yoke? nothing but personal preference and/or failure to adapt.
Incorrect. First hand experience here... driven both. Entry and exit, for me is easier. You can say it is worse for you... but you can't say it is worse for me.Nope, it's worse since it's slightly wider overall and definitely wider at the bottom-left corner.
What turns doesn't this work for aside from a U-turn or 3-point? No... hands are in better position... I have no issue. Sounds like failure to adapt.Again, no, especially during turns.
Again, failure to adapt. I have responded on ice, as well as to a ladder that was ejected from the back of a pickup truck into my lane. No issues by having the yoke EXCEPT for horn. The lack of a center horn button is an issue... but that isn't a yoke issue (isn't fixed with the wheel).Nope. Makes it much, much worse, especially during emergency maneuvers. I found myself steering with one or two fingers to avoid the nonsense of crossing my arms.
No, your, and many people's subjective opinions are that it is worse. you do not "need" to cross your arms, adapt your driving habits, I did! I could demo how if you need, but you are intelligent, we have had many discussions. I am sure you can figure it out.It's objectively worse - far from personal preference, but any control device in which you need to cross your arms to make a turn is a failure. A control device that leaves you grasping for air in the middle of a turn is a failure. A device in which the turn signals can be crossed up - the lower button is now the right turn signal, for example, during a U-turn or exiting a parking lot - is a failure.
If I have to stop and think "the yoke (OR wheel!) is upside down, so which blinker is which?" - that's a FAILURE.
The yoke is simply change for change's sake, and does not offer any benefit aside from aesthetics.... which is the LAST thing anyone should be concerned about with a control device.
Incorrect. First hand experience here... driven both. Entry and exit, for me is easier. You can say it is worse for you... but you can't say it is worse for me.
What turns doesn't this work for aside from a U-turn or 3-point? No... hands are in better position... I have no issue. Sounds like failure to adapt.
Again, failure to adapt. I have responded on ice, as well as to a ladder that was ejected from the back of a pickup truck into my lane. No issues by having the yoke EXCEPT for horn. The lack of a center horn button is an issue... but that isn't a yoke issue (isn't fixed with the wheel).
If you are trying to do a U-turn or something in an emergency situation this may cause an issue... but, when is that your emergency quick-response? never in my driving years. The yoke presents no issue for normal driving or at-speed emergencies.
No, your, and many people's subjective opinions are that it is worse. you do not "need" to cross your arms, adapt your driving habits, I did! I could demo how if you need, but you are intelligent, we have had many discussions. I am sure you can figure it out.
Your "grasping for air" statement is PERFECT, and supports my point. If you are grasping for air one of two issues exist: 1, you don't have the experience and have not developed muscle memory. 2, you have and will continue to fail to adapt. If #2 is your problem, stick with your wheel.
Lastly, partially yes. U-turns are more difficult at first... once adapted, no significant impact.
I don't stop and think about which blinker is which. It is muscle memory now. It did take a bit to get used to, that is true! but now, it is intuitive. As much as flicking my finger out to move a stalk up or down to go left or right... which way do you push your stalk to turn left? That's right! down. which button is left? the one that is slightly off-set to the left and lower, aka, the down button. Once I correlated that, adaptation was nearly instant. start with your finger on the ridge and flick up or down, just like a stalk... works really well to develop that memory. now I instinctively just press the right one.
Is it change for change's sake? Is that why other manufacturers are exploring using yoke steering? Time will tell.
I know I am in the minority; the yoke works perfectly for me. I adapted to it relatively quickly. I was motivated to do so and I put in a LOT of driving hours which made the transition easier than it is for most people.
So many people saying the same stuff, you had some interesting points.Ingress/egress is more due to the shorter/flatter bottom than it being a yoke specifically. Flat bottom wheels exist too.
Hand over hand steering is best for low speed maneuvers when lots of steering angle is needed (eg parking). Push and pull method is the safest since your arms never cross in front of the airbag. Can’t easily do either of those with the yoke.
10/2 hand position is outdated due to air bags and also impossible with the yoke as there’s nothing at 10/2. 9/3 position is now recommended or even 8/4. But the yoke and/or going stalkless does nothing to enforce 9/3 position either. People are free to rest their hand anywhere else and move it up to 9/3 as needed to operate the controls, whether it’s a stalk or buttons. You may find you prefer to hold it there but most people don’t, especially for long drives.
Even if they kept a single stalk for the turn signal, it would have been better than completely stalkless. There should be some sort of physical control for the shifter - whether it’s a stalk or console lever or knob or buttons. There is no way to shift without looking at the screen otherwise. There is no usability benefit to not having a physical shifter control, it only makes usability worse. Just more cost cutting disguised as innovation.
yes!!! 100% this. and there is NOTHING WRONG with not wanting to adapt. the #1 issue with the Yoke IMHO is that they didn't start with a wheel option. Tesla didn't think about their audience.I genuinely appreciate your take on the yoke ... it can be very polarizing and there are no right answers.
And you are right, I didn't adapt to it. Frankly, I didn't want to. I've got 30+ years and a half million+ miles of driving experience behind me, and every.other.vehicle.I've.ever.driven has a wheel. I routinely drive rental cars for work. Wheel. We have multiple other daily drivers in the driveway. Wheel. Family members' cars, rentals, trucks, U-hauls, boats, tractors, etc you name it, all wheel.
If maybe I were younger, and the S were the only car I were driving -- maybe then I'd make a strong effort to adapt.
But for me, trying to execute a U-turn and blurting out "F this piece of S!" made a whole lot more sense than undoing decades of muscle memory --- which I still need day-to-day.
All that said, I *did* adapt to the shifter, quickly. Caught myself in the Model 3 swiping down to put the car in reverse and wondering why the F it wasn't doing so. Oh, right, stalk. So maybe there's hope for my feeble brain yet.
Yoke is better function and design..I never put my hand on the top part steering wheel...iIf the wheel is blocking the instrument cluster then the car/wheel/dashboard are suffer from poor design and there’s no compensating for poor engineering. Otherwise you’re spot on In your assessment.
Many people like to point out that ‘airplanes use yokes so therefore it must be a good idea.‘ If you’ve ever flown an airplane you’d know how ludicrous this statement is. Many airplanes also have sticks so maybe Elon could make a Model S with a stick instead of a yoke? Sarcasm aside, at the most basic level is the fact that the yoke in a plane doesn‘t turn past 90º, typically it doesn’t go past 45º, but beyond that cars are not planes. About the only similarity is they both have seats.
Fixed it for you.Yoke isbetterpoor function and design..I never put my hand on the top part steering wheel...i
Wait - you can’t adapt to 2 seconds of sliding your knee under a wheel but yet you talk about the need to adapt to using the yoke every second you‘re driving??? SMHIncorrect. First hand experience here... driven both. Entry and exit, for me is easier. You can say it is worse for you... but you can't say it is worse for me.
Any turn in which you need to turn the wheel past 75º or so. THere are quite a few. And since you’re so focused on keeping your hands at 10 and 2 so I don’t break my arm when the airbag goes off, the yoke forces you to have your hands in the wrong position when you’re turning. Since you likely will turn to avoid an accident it actually makes the yoke more dangerous.What turns doesn't this work for aside from a U-turn or 3-point? No... hands are in better position... I have no issue. Sounds like failure to adapt.
How to respond to a complete lack of logic? There really is no response. And no response necessary except to say grasping for air when you’re trying to steer a car is bad. Period.Your "grasping for air" statement is PERFECT, and supports my point.
A perfect example of poor design. The wheel should not block the instrument panel In a well-designed car.The old Model S had a bigger steering wheel, so blocking the instrument cluster wasn't really an issue. With the new one, which is noticeably smaller, it definitely blocks it.