Cost evolution of MS/X yoke

[racerx2005]

Selling a Tesla with a yoke will be just as hard as selling a car with Carfax accident reported.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

If the wheel is blocking the instrument cluster then the car/wheel/dashboard are suffer from poor design and there’s no compensating for poor engineering. Otherwise you’re spot on In your assessment.

Many people like to point out that ‘airplanes use yokes so therefore it must be a good idea.‘ If you’ve ever flown an airplane you’d know how ludicrous this statement is. Many airplanes also have sticks so maybe Elon could make a Model S with a stick instead of a yoke? Sarcasm aside, at the most basic level is the fact that the yoke in a plane doesn‘t turn past 90º, typically it doesn’t go past 45º, but beyond that cars are not planes. About the only similarity is they both have seats.

is it poor design or intentional? I think objectively it was intentional... if you subjectively think it is a poor design that is your opinion which is fine, but the difference between subjective opinions and objective aspects is important.

I have some hours under my belt, and I would say the similarity isn't necessarily that yoke is best; it has its' place. More importantly, as a pilot adapting to different systems/control methods becomes second nature. You learn how to adapt and learn new systems. THAT is the similarity. Want to drive a stick shift? learn how to and adapt. Want a car with a yoke? ok, learn how to use it. Learn the benefits and drawbacks and adapt. simple as that. Is it hands-down better or something? no way. Is it a functional and effective ergonomic control mechanism? yep.

 

[CTruck_BMW]

Selling a Tesla with a yoke will be just as hard as selling a car with Carfax accident reported.

For non-Tesla owners (those who are new to Tesla), they Yoke is attractive. However, for current Tesla owners, I agree that the wheel is a must have for better/quicker re-sale.

I never owned a Tesla and just got mine, and I almost almost fell in the Yoke trap until I test drove both and asked several members here who tried both. Got the wheel and happy I did on every single turn and U-turn I make while letting the wheel slip through my hand.

 

[racerx2005]

For non-Tesla owners (those who are new to Tesla), they Yoke is attractive. However, for current Tesla owners, I agree that the wheel is a must have for better/quicker re-sale.

I never owned a Tesla and just got mine, and I almost almost fell in the Yoke trap until I test drove both and asked several members here who tried both. Got the wheel and happy I did on every single turn and U-turn I make while letting the wheel slip through my hand.

Fair enough … I’m on my third Tesla, e.g. M3P, MYP and waiting on MSP delivery, evidently with traditional steering wheel.

You will remember my statement when you put yours for sale. Enjoy your new ride.

 

[Speedr117]

The old Model S had a bigger steering wheel, so blocking the instrument cluster wasn't really an issue. With the new one, which is noticeably smaller, it definitely blocks it. I was planning on getting the steering wheel, but drove the Yoke first. When I tried the steering wheel, I really didn't like the view. For me, it was well worth the slight inconvenience of learning where to put hands in a tight parking lot maneuvers so I could have a better view (and it does feel/look cooler).

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Selling a Tesla with a yoke will be just as hard as selling a car with Carfax accident reported.

I will take that bet. I will probably be selling mine in... 3 years? maybe 5. Maybe longer... I put ~30k miles on annually.

My assumptions that will impact re-sale price:
1. Current price and price drops of new Model S plaids as well as tech refreshes (does a Plaid come out that is sub 9sec in a couple years?)
2. Mileage vs age. Unlike an ICE car, mileage has less impact on vehicle reliability than age does... especially regarding battery life. Will common knowledge catch up or will mileage still be king for resale? Time will tell.
3. Condition. Assuming the car hasn't been in an accident, has no significant blemishes... etc.
4. Maybe the Yoke? the Yoke is a rare upgrade... depending on the buyer it may actually increase the price! We will see.

I'll text ya when I sell.

 

[sleepydoc]

is it poor design or intentional? I think objectively it was intentional... if you subjectively think it is a poor design that is your opinion which is fine, but the difference between subjective opinions and objective aspects is important.

I have some hours under my belt, and I would say the similarity isn't necessarily that yoke is best; it has its' place. More importantly, as a pilot adapting to different systems/control methods becomes second nature. You learn how to adapt and learn new systems. THAT is the similarity. Want to drive a stick shift? learn how to and adapt. Want a car with a yoke? ok, learn how to use it. Learn the benefits and drawbacks and adapt. simple as that. Is it hands-down better or something? no way. Is it a functional and effective ergonomic control mechanism? yep.

Obscuring essential gauges is objectively poor design. There is no subjectivity involved. If it was intentional then it goes beyond poor design into the realm of negligence.

Yeah, change to change isn't always a good thing, but there are reasons to abandon the old tried and true wheel.

What the Yoke does better: Easier entry/exit for taller people. forces good hand position. good visibility of gauge cluster (which you mentioned). Minimizes hand-over-hand turning if used properly. Looks way cooler.

Going stalkless ensures that hands are kept at 10/2, at least in my case, my thumbs are always around the buttons. I also don't like stalks... never did. for a turn signal... sure, that is ok. but for shifting wipers or w/e else? no thank you. I would like a center horn though.

The yoke with a wire system would be 100% better than the current, absolutely.

I am far from a "tesla can do no wrong person". I do think they did make two mistakes: people were not ready for this change, this should have been optional from the get-go, and they should have made it a variable turn with a steer by wire system. I can also go into SOOOOoooo many other issues the car has. But round wheel over yoke? nothing but personal preference and/or failure to adapt.

• I a 6'5"/196 cm tall. I have no problem getting into my car. in fact I can get into our Honda Odyssey when my 5 foot wife has been driving it (although I won't claim this is easy.) So this 'advantage' is a nonexistent one made up by people looking to justify the yoke. Further more, even if it were true, compromising drivability for something so trivial is a poor decision.
• Forcing 'good hand position' - this appears to be another contrived advantage. The reality is this supposed advantage completely disappears as soon as you turn the wheel, at which point it becomes a disadvantage. See below. I also rarely keep my hands at 10 & 2 for prolonged periods. On the highway it's not comfortable and in town I'm turning often enough that my hands move around constantly.
• Gauge cluster visibility - see my point above. using a poor interface to compensate for poor design is bad engineering, plain and simple. In another thread I posted a picture of our Odyssey's dashboard. It's perfectly framed by the wheel and all gauges are entirely visible. Of course when I posted the picture the yoke fans went to great lengths to claim that I had altered the perspective or otherwise manipulated the picture because it just couldn't be possible that you could see the entire dashboard with a steering wheel. Oh the lengths people will go to so they can justify their beliefs.
• "going stalkless ensures that the hands are kept at 10/2" - ummm you realize where the stalks are, right? At 10 and 2. As far as wipers go, the stalk has as clear advantage in that you can operate it by feel without removing your hands from the wheel or eyes from the road, especially important in inclement weather when you need to concentrate on the road. This is another area where Tesla has fallen down - requiring the driver to take his/her eyes off the road to find the wiper settings on a flat touchscreen is also poor design. Shifting can be done in a myriad of ways so I agree with you that a stalk is unnecessary there.
• Minimizing hand-over-hand turning - you have just highlighted one of the major and most critical flaws of the yoke. hand over hand turning is not dangerous as you would seem to imply, rather it is safer because you always have one hand on the wheel ready to make any sudden adjustments. You can also easily let the week slide in your hand when completing a turn, something that's impossible with the yoke. This is the most critical flaw of the yoke IMO. With a wheel
• I can have perfect control at any angle of turn and I can instantly grab it without looking no matter how it's turned. In an emergency situation I don't want to take my eyes off the wheel to figure out where the damned yoke is, or reach to grab it, miss and find myself in the ditch.

You are correct, people can learn to accommodate a wide variety of circumstances and controls, but good control design works with ergonomics and minimizes the need for accommodation. The yoke doesn't do that. yokes have been around for decades. If they were truly better the wheel would be gone.

I'll end with a video I saw on Car and Driver showing one of their test drivers who had driven a Tesla with a yoke for a month and was trying to maneuver in a 3 point turn (or some similar situation.) There was a steady stream of profanities coming from his mouth as he struggled with the yoke. This is a professional driver who had a month to get used to these supposedly similar controls.

 

[sleepydoc]

Tesla Owners Are Ditching the Yoke, Big Time | Edmunds

Tesla owners have decided they would rather have a round wheel than the infamous yoke, and the retrofit has already sold out just a month after its introduction.

www.edmunds.com

 

[sleepydoc]

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/report-tesla-sells-out-of-yoke-replacing-steering-wheels/

 

[E90alex]

Yeah, change to change isn't always a good thing, but there are reasons to abandon the old tried and true wheel.

What the Yoke does better: Easier entry/exit for taller people. forces good hand position. good visibility of gauge cluster (which you mentioned). Minimizes hand-over-hand turning if used properly. Looks way cooler.

Going stalkless ensures that hands are kept at 10/2, at least in my case, my thumbs are always around the buttons. I also don't like stalks... never did. for a turn signal... sure, that is ok. but for shifting wipers or w/e else? no thank you. I would like a center horn though.

The yoke with a wire system would be 100% better than the current, absolutely.

I am far from a "tesla can do no wrong person". I do think they did make two mistakes: people were not ready for this change, this should have been optional from the get-go, and they should have made it a variable turn with a steer by wire system. I can also go into SOOOOoooo many other issues the car has. But round wheel over yoke? nothing but personal preference and/or failure to adapt.

Ingress/egress is more due to the shorter/flatter bottom than it being a yoke specifically. Flat bottom wheels exist too.

Hand over hand steering is best for low speed maneuvers when lots of steering angle is needed (eg parking). Push and pull method is the safest since your arms never cross in front of the airbag. Can’t easily do either of those with the yoke.

10/2 hand position is outdated due to air bags and also impossible with the yoke as there’s nothing at 10/2. 9/3 position is now recommended or even 8/4. But the yoke and/or going stalkless does nothing to enforce 9/3 position either. People are free to rest their hand anywhere else and move it up to 9/3 as needed to operate the controls, whether it’s a stalk or buttons. You may find you prefer to hold it there but most people don’t, especially for long drives.

Even if they kept a single stalk for the turn signal, it would have been better than completely stalkless. There should be some sort of physical control for the shifter - whether it’s a stalk or console lever or knob or buttons. There is no way to shift without looking at the screen otherwise. There is no usability benefit to not having a physical shifter control, it only makes usability worse. Just more cost cutting disguised as innovation.

 

[dmurphy]

Yeah, change to change isn't always a good thing, but there are reasons to abandon the old tried and true wheel.

What the Yoke does better: Easier entry/exit for taller people.

Nope, it's worse since it's slightly wider overall and definitely wider at the bottom-left corner.

forces good hand position.

Again, no, especially during turns.

good visibility of gauge cluster (which you mentioned).

For sure.

Minimizes hand-over-hand turning if used properly.

Nope. Makes it much, much worse, especially during emergency maneuvers. I found myself steering with one or two fingers to avoid the nonsense of crossing my arms.

Looks way cooler.

Subjective, but I agree, it's certainly a discussion piece.

Going stalkless ensures that hands are kept at 10/2, at least in my case, my thumbs are always around the buttons.

Nope. Actually, if, anything, it makes me use the blinkers LESS. It's basically BMW-mode.

The yoke with a wire system would be 100% better than the current, absolutely.

Very much so.

But round wheel over yoke? nothing but personal preference and/or failure to adapt.

It's objectively worse - far from personal preference, but any control device in which you need to cross your arms to make a turn is a failure. A control device that leaves you grasping for air in the middle of a turn is a failure. A device in which the turn signals can be crossed up - the lower button is now the right turn signal, for example, during a U-turn or exiting a parking lot - is a failure.

If I have to stop and think "the yoke (OR wheel!) is upside down, so which blinker is which?" - that's a FAILURE.

The yoke is simply change for change's sake, and does not offer any benefit aside from aesthetics.... which is the LAST thing anyone should be concerned about with a control device.

 

[Hamilton237]

A lot of people are reporting peeling on the top and sides of the yoke. Tesla has been doing warranty replacements and apparently they'll have a new version available soon to fix the problem. I bet they are watching the number of warranty replacements and are intentionally slowing the take rate for the current revision of the yoke. Any new one they sell has a chance of needing a replacement down the road at their cost. If a new version with better quality does show up, we'll see if the price goes back down.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Nope, it's worse since it's slightly wider overall and definitely wider at the bottom-left corner.

Incorrect. First hand experience here... driven both. Entry and exit, for me is easier. You can say it is worse for you... but you can't say it is worse for me.

Again, no, especially during turns.

What turns doesn't this work for aside from a U-turn or 3-point? No... hands are in better position... I have no issue. Sounds like failure to adapt.

Nope. Makes it much, much worse, especially during emergency maneuvers. I found myself steering with one or two fingers to avoid the nonsense of crossing my arms.

Again, failure to adapt. I have responded on ice, as well as to a ladder that was ejected from the back of a pickup truck into my lane. No issues by having the yoke EXCEPT for horn. The lack of a center horn button is an issue... but that isn't a yoke issue (isn't fixed with the wheel).

If you are trying to do a U-turn or something in an emergency situation this may cause an issue... but, when is that your emergency quick-response? never in my driving years. The yoke presents no issue for normal driving or at-speed emergencies.

It's objectively worse - far from personal preference, but any control device in which you need to cross your arms to make a turn is a failure. A control device that leaves you grasping for air in the middle of a turn is a failure. A device in which the turn signals can be crossed up - the lower button is now the right turn signal, for example, during a U-turn or exiting a parking lot - is a failure.

No, your, and many people's subjective opinions are that it is worse. you do not "need" to cross your arms, adapt your driving habits, I did! I could demo how if you need, but you are intelligent, we have had many discussions. I am sure you can figure it out.

Your "grasping for air" statement is PERFECT, and supports my point. If you are grasping for air one of two issues exist: 1, you don't have the experience and have not developed muscle memory. 2, you have and will continue to fail to adapt. If #2 is your problem, stick with your wheel.

Lastly, partially yes. U-turns are more difficult at first... once adapted, no significant impact.

If I have to stop and think "the yoke (OR wheel!) is upside down, so which blinker is which?" - that's a FAILURE.

The yoke is simply change for change's sake, and does not offer any benefit aside from aesthetics.... which is the LAST thing anyone should be concerned about with a control device.

I don't stop and think about which blinker is which. It is muscle memory now. It did take a bit to get used to, that is true! but now, it is intuitive. As much as flicking my finger out to move a stalk up or down to go left or right... which way do you push your stalk to turn left? That's right! down. which button is left? the one that is slightly off-set to the left and lower, aka, the down button. Once I correlated that, adaptation was nearly instant. start with your finger on the ridge and flick up or down, just like a stalk... works really well to develop that memory. now I instinctively just press the right one.

Is it change for change's sake? Is that why other manufacturers are exploring using yoke steering? Time will tell.

I know I am in the minority; the yoke works perfectly for me. I adapted to it relatively quickly. I was motivated to do so and I put in a LOT of driving hours which made the transition easier than it is for most people.

 

[dmurphy]

Incorrect. First hand experience here... driven both. Entry and exit, for me is easier. You can say it is worse for you... but you can't say it is worse for me.

What turns doesn't this work for aside from a U-turn or 3-point? No... hands are in better position... I have no issue. Sounds like failure to adapt.

Again, failure to adapt. I have responded on ice, as well as to a ladder that was ejected from the back of a pickup truck into my lane. No issues by having the yoke EXCEPT for horn. The lack of a center horn button is an issue... but that isn't a yoke issue (isn't fixed with the wheel).

If you are trying to do a U-turn or something in an emergency situation this may cause an issue... but, when is that your emergency quick-response? never in my driving years. The yoke presents no issue for normal driving or at-speed emergencies.

No, your, and many people's subjective opinions are that it is worse. you do not "need" to cross your arms, adapt your driving habits, I did! I could demo how if you need, but you are intelligent, we have had many discussions. I am sure you can figure it out.

Your "grasping for air" statement is PERFECT, and supports my point. If you are grasping for air one of two issues exist: 1, you don't have the experience and have not developed muscle memory. 2, you have and will continue to fail to adapt. If #2 is your problem, stick with your wheel.

Lastly, partially yes. U-turns are more difficult at first... once adapted, no significant impact.


I don't stop and think about which blinker is which. It is muscle memory now. It did take a bit to get used to, that is true! but now, it is intuitive. As much as flicking my finger out to move a stalk up or down to go left or right... which way do you push your stalk to turn left? That's right! down. which button is left? the one that is slightly off-set to the left and lower, aka, the down button. Once I correlated that, adaptation was nearly instant. start with your finger on the ridge and flick up or down, just like a stalk... works really well to develop that memory. now I instinctively just press the right one.

Is it change for change's sake? Is that why other manufacturers are exploring using yoke steering? Time will tell.

I know I am in the minority; the yoke works perfectly for me. I adapted to it relatively quickly. I was motivated to do so and I put in a LOT of driving hours which made the transition easier than it is for most people.

I genuinely appreciate your take on the yoke ... it can be very polarizing and there are no right answers.

And you are right, I didn't adapt to it. Frankly, I didn't want to. I've got 30+ years and a half million+ miles of driving experience behind me, and every.other.vehicle.I've.ever.driven has a wheel. I routinely drive rental cars for work. Wheel. We have multiple other daily drivers in the driveway. Wheel. Family members' cars, rentals, trucks, U-hauls, boats, tractors, etc you name it, all wheel.

If maybe I were younger, and the S were the only car I were driving -- maybe then I'd make a strong effort to adapt.

But for me, trying to execute a U-turn and blurting out "F this piece of S!" made a whole lot more sense than undoing decades of muscle memory --- which I still need day-to-day.

All that said, I *did* adapt to the shifter, quickly. Caught myself in the Model 3 swiping down to put the car in reverse and wondering why the F it wasn't doing so. Oh, right, stalk. So maybe there's hope for my feeble brain yet.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Ingress/egress is more due to the shorter/flatter bottom than it being a yoke specifically. Flat bottom wheels exist too.

Hand over hand steering is best for low speed maneuvers when lots of steering angle is needed (eg parking). Push and pull method is the safest since your arms never cross in front of the airbag. Can’t easily do either of those with the yoke.

10/2 hand position is outdated due to air bags and also impossible with the yoke as there’s nothing at 10/2. 9/3 position is now recommended or even 8/4. But the yoke and/or going stalkless does nothing to enforce 9/3 position either. People are free to rest their hand anywhere else and move it up to 9/3 as needed to operate the controls, whether it’s a stalk or buttons. You may find you prefer to hold it there but most people don’t, especially for long drives.

Even if they kept a single stalk for the turn signal, it would have been better than completely stalkless. There should be some sort of physical control for the shifter - whether it’s a stalk or console lever or knob or buttons. There is no way to shift without looking at the screen otherwise. There is no usability benefit to not having a physical shifter control, it only makes usability worse. Just more cost cutting disguised as innovation.

So many people saying the same stuff, you had some interesting points.

hand-over-hand is bad due to airbags. that is how you get a dislocated shoulder/broken arm/face.

I agree, you are right, 10/2, 9/3... we have one option with the yoke.... unless you use the bottom. for long drives, aka my daily drive to work (an hour 15, to 2 hour drive) I use autopilot, and rest my hand on the bottom like we do on all wheels during autopilot. If you don't use autopilot for long drives I can see how this could get tiring... just like holding a wheel.

Stalks are a different discussion, and I know my preference is in the minority. that said, button location is straight preference. I don't need a physical shifter to shift, I like the auto shift, and I don't see how a mechanical "click" is required to shift... we each have our preferences.

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

I genuinely appreciate your take on the yoke ... it can be very polarizing and there are no right answers.

And you are right, I didn't adapt to it. Frankly, I didn't want to. I've got 30+ years and a half million+ miles of driving experience behind me, and every.other.vehicle.I've.ever.driven has a wheel. I routinely drive rental cars for work. Wheel. We have multiple other daily drivers in the driveway. Wheel. Family members' cars, rentals, trucks, U-hauls, boats, tractors, etc you name it, all wheel.

If maybe I were younger, and the S were the only car I were driving -- maybe then I'd make a strong effort to adapt.

But for me, trying to execute a U-turn and blurting out "F this piece of S!" made a whole lot more sense than undoing decades of muscle memory --- which I still need day-to-day.

All that said, I *did* adapt to the shifter, quickly. Caught myself in the Model 3 swiping down to put the car in reverse and wondering why the F it wasn't doing so. Oh, right, stalk. So maybe there's hope for my feeble brain yet.

yes!!! 100% this. and there is NOTHING WRONG with not wanting to adapt. the #1 issue with the Yoke IMHO is that they didn't start with a wheel option. Tesla didn't think about their audience.

I would not call that feeble minded Murphy... that is just grounded, and that goes with my point honestly.

Yokes are not the end-all-be-all for steering, but just because they don't work for you (the royal you) doesn't make them objectively bad.

 

[Wratran]

If the wheel is blocking the instrument cluster then the car/wheel/dashboard are suffer from poor design and there’s no compensating for poor engineering. Otherwise you’re spot on In your assessment.

Many people like to point out that ‘airplanes use yokes so therefore it must be a good idea.‘ If you’ve ever flown an airplane you’d know how ludicrous this statement is. Many airplanes also have sticks so maybe Elon could make a Model S with a stick instead of a yoke? Sarcasm aside, at the most basic level is the fact that the yoke in a plane doesn‘t turn past 90º, typically it doesn’t go past 45º, but beyond that cars are not planes. About the only similarity is they both have seats.

Yoke is better function and design..I never put my hand on the top part steering wheel...i

 

[sleepydoc]

Yoke is better poor function and design..I never put my hand on the top part steering wheel...i

Fixed it for you.

As has been pointed out - the problem isn’t driving straight. I don’t put my hand on the top then either. The problem is turning. And emergency maneuvering. And when the auto shift mechanism gets it wrong. and when you’re wearing gloves because it’s -20 outside and the touch controls don’t work.

Incorrect. First hand experience here... driven both. Entry and exit, for me is easier. You can say it is worse for you... but you can't say it is worse for me.

Wait - you can’t adapt to 2 seconds of sliding your knee under a wheel but yet you talk about the need to adapt to using the yoke every second you‘re driving??? SMH

Also, you do know about the easy entry setting, right?

What turns doesn't this work for aside from a U-turn or 3-point? No... hands are in better position... I have no issue. Sounds like failure to adapt.

Any turn in which you need to turn the wheel past 75º or so. THere are quite a few. And since you’re so focused on keeping your hands at 10 and 2 so I don’t break my arm when the airbag goes off, the yoke forces you to have your hands in the wrong position when you’re turning. Since you likely will turn to avoid an accident it actually makes the yoke more dangerous.

Of course, this is really a poor excuse either way. How many people do you know who have broken their arm from an airbag deployment? An informal survey of 8 coworkers yielded zero instances in a combined 250+ years of driving.

Your "grasping for air" statement is PERFECT, and supports my point.

How to respond to a complete lack of logic? There really is no response. And no response necessary except to say grasping for air when you’re trying to steer a car is bad. Period.

The old Model S had a bigger steering wheel, so blocking the instrument cluster wasn't really an issue. With the new one, which is noticeably smaller, it definitely blocks it.

A perfect example of poor design. The wheel should not block the instrument panel In a well-designed car.

 

[brooklyn]

Having a hard time understanding how anyone justifies the Yoke. That said, I have one with about 2k or so miles on it sitting in my garage. I think I'd sell mine right now for the right price if Tesla's new pricing is accurate. Anyone paying $1k for that thing is absolutely nuts.

 

[cucubits]

Question from someone coming from the outside (took a complete break from Tesla for a couple years): did elon make any statements about the yoke? Has he admitted that it's a failed approach or did he say why they came up with it in the first place?

I haven't driven with one yet but I'd like to try for sure. Looks cool and apart from not being able to let the wheel slip in my hands when coming out of turns, I don't really see any downsides to it.