Do I Own the Software in my Model 3?

[OttoR]

This also depends on jurisdiction! What is valid in the US, is not necessarily valid in e.g. the EU.

Copyright only says you can't multiply it. E.g. if I buy a book, I own the book and I can sell the book. What I can't do is copy all pages, bind it to create a second book.

For software - since copying it is a bit less complicated - this also applies; however a license agreement should tell you what you can do with it. E.g. I can buy a CD-ROM with an antivirus program that's licensed to my name for use on one computer. I can sell the CD-ROM but the other person will only be able to use it on their computer if they use my license code (and possible - name) and if indeed I have deactivated and uninstalled the program from my computer.

In the case of FSD, I buy (not subscribe) the software to enable the hardware therein. It is going to be an interesting case in court to see wether indeed Tesla is in their right to disable the function when I decide to sell the car to e.g. My neighbour.

I think a Dutch court would argue I own the car as a whole; including the FSD and therefor I am free to sell it to whomever I please. Just as much as Tesa cannot remove the USB ports that are installed or the tires for that matter. It is a function that belongs to the car.

Especially as you pay a hefty sum for a "self driving car" promise that is yet to be fulfilled and could easily take more than the life expectancy of that car to do so.

 

[OttoR]

This is absolutely not correct in any broad sense.

There's a number of ways in which a license can be written to not be legally transferable.

See the ruling in Vernor v Autodesk for example where the court found the attempt to re-sell the software was not permitted.






YMMV by jurisdiction of course (especially in in EU)




Would be curious if you have any specific case citations?

What if the company was acquired? Than I would think the licenses would have been transferable to the 'new' company.

Aso business law vs consumer law is quite different!!

 

[OttoR]

The difference I think is:

1. I can't sell FSD from me to you, so you can start using it on your car and I no longer on my car.
   
2. I can sell my car - including all accessories and software installed - to you.

Tesla might not want it this way; but I think courts would argue it as such. The way for Tesla to change this is to have a subscription to a service. And they could have different subscriber fees.

 

[Gasaraki]

Did I purchase the software when I purchased the car? If so, shouldn't I legally be able to transfer FSD from my Model 3 to a new Model Y? I know that Tesla doesn't offer this service, nor anyone else that I know of, but if someone could figure out how, wouldn't it be legal? Or does Tesla retain ownership of the software? When Chevrolet sells a Corvette, the owner can pull the motor out and put it in any car that he can fit it into, and no-one questions his right to do this. Is software intrinsically different?

Even though I didn't read the agreement, I'm am 100% positive that whenever anyone "buys" software, they are not actually buying it. It's just leasing. No company is going to sell you their software because then you can go and sell the code to someone else.

 

[Knightshade]

This also depends on jurisdiction! What is valid in the US, is not necessarily valid in e.g. the EU.

Probably why I literally said "YMMV by jurisdiction of course (especially in in EU)"

What if the company was acquired? Than I would think the licenses would have been transferable to the 'new' company.

You would think incorrectly then.

Software Licenses Do Not Automatically Transfer in a Merger or Acquisition | IT Attorneys in Michigan: Foster Swift

In Cincom Systems, Inc v Novelis Corp., 581 F.3d 431 (6th Cir. Sept 2009), the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed a $460,000.00 intellectual property infringement claim in favor of a software licensor against a business for attempting to transfer its software license to a new company created by a merger.

Federal common law provides that copyright licenses (read software licenses) are unassignable absent express language to the contrary. Therefore, a merger, acquisition or corporate restructuring may constitute an impermissible transfer of an intellectual property license absent text in the license agreement to the contrary.

In the case of FSD, I buy (not subscribe) the software to enable the hardware therein. It is going to be an interesting case in court to see wether indeed Tesla is in their right to disable the function when I decide to sell the car to e.g. My neighbour.

Tesla doesn't do that.

The only time Tesla removes FSD is if you sell the car back to tesla

Since they're now the owner they can do whatever they want with it.

(in the one case that made the news a few months back where it "looked" like Tesla had done it anyway- turns out the car had been sold back to them in the middle of the whole thing, just the "update" to remove FSD didn't actually make it to the car until after it'd be resold at auction- that's an error of IT on Teslas part taking to long to do the SW push, and they corrected the mistake by putting FSD back when called on it)

 

[one2many]

Well if I buy a washing machine, it has a DSP processor and code.
I am sure that copywrite protection covers the copy or sale of code, but
there is no license agreement. If I sell that washing machine or come
up with a hack to make it wash faster, my guess is that I am safe.
It would be funny if they told me that spin dry is Beta.

 

[jjrandorin]

This also depends on jurisdiction! What is valid in the US, is not necessarily valid in e.g. the EU.

Copyright only says you can't multiply it. E.g. if I buy a book, I own the book and I can sell the book. What I can't do is copy all pages, bind it to create a second book.

...........................

In the case of FSD, I buy (not subscribe) the software to enable the hardware therein. It is going to be an interesting case in court to see wether indeed Tesla is in their right to disable the function when I decide to sell the car to e.g. My neighbour.

I think a Dutch court would argue I own the car as a whole; including the FSD and therefor I am free to sell it to whomever I please. Just as much as Tesa cannot remove the USB ports that are installed or the tires for that matter. It is a function that belongs to the car.

Especially as you pay a hefty sum for a "self driving car" promise that is yet to be fulfilled and could easily take more than the life expectancy of that car to do so.

Tesla doesnt disable FSD if you "sell the car to your neighbor". FSD stays with the car in a private party sale. If the car is sold to TESLA they remove it (as they can, as the owner, when its sold to them).

The argument this OP is making is not "tesla disables it when I sell the car to my neighbor". Its "I should be able to keep it and put it on another car with no charge".

 

[one2many]

Well in the case the car is totaled I can see the case, why not give the guy
what he had before. (software) If I had racing seats installed after I bought the
car should I expect the dealer to install them at zero charge when I sell my car.
This will get more complex as we get software goodies from auto's.

 

[Knightshade]

Well in the case the car is totaled I can see the case, why not give the guy
what he had before. (software)

If the car is totaled your car insurance would be the one on the hook to replace what you had before- including FSD.

 

[Apprunner]

If the car is totaled your car insurance would be the one on the hook to replace what you had before- including FSD.

If the car came with FSD at purchase, it should be covered by insurance as its based on market values. If the FSD was purchased after the car purchase, the owner needs to report it to their insurance company or it won't be covered.

 

[dfwatt]

Did I purchase the software when I purchased the car? If so, shouldn't I legally be able to transfer FSD from my Model 3 to a new Model Y? I know that Tesla doesn't offer this service, nor anyone else that I know of, but if someone could figure out how, wouldn't it be legal? Or does Tesla retain ownership of the software? When Chevrolet sells a Corvette, the owner can pull the motor out and put it in any car that he can fit it into, and no-one questions his right to do this. Is software intrinsically different?

In order, no, you don't own the software you just have a license agreement so, no you shouldn't be able to transfer full self-driving from one model to the next. It's not a question of Tesla offering this as a "service" as you put it, it's a license. And no it's different from Chevrolet selling you a motor. So yes software is intrinsically different from hardware. Hope that is helpful. For people coming from non-software backgrounds, all this is counterintuitive, but for folks who have long since adjusted to this as a different reality from our normal notion of of a physical entity, it's standard operating procedure

 

[ElectricIAC]

Honestly I can’t wait for a subscription model for FSD. Both our cars may have had it included but I shudder to think about paying $8,000+ for FSD (at current use of function) on a car I may keep 3-4y (if that)

For that cost it should be a 8-10 year license tied to the account and transferable on change of ownership.

 

[Apprunner]

Honestly I can’t wait for a subscription model for FSD. Both our cars may have had it included but I shudder to think about paying $8,000+ for FSD (at current use of function) on a car I may keep 3-4y (if that)

For that cost it should be a 8-10 year license tied to the account and transferable on change of ownership.

Its transferable with the car...like adding a turbo option to an engine. Its not like you can take the turbo option with you when you transfer to a new car. I know logistics say its much easier with software but thats how the license agreement was written and thats how Tesla monetizes its effort to create the software.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Its transferable with the car...like adding a turbo option to an engine. Its not like you can take the turbo option with you when you transfer to a new car. I know logistics say its much easier with software but thats how the license agreement was written and thats how Tesla monetizes its effort to create the software.

Sure, but it also limits the pool of buyers. I could have someone kicking tires on a car at asking price and a serious buyer who doesn’t care about FSD for $3-4K less so it would be nice to be able to transfer it to a new Tesla instead when the value on resale isn’t being realized.

A corner case surely but when is more options a bad thing for the consumer?

 

[LACALawyer]

You people realize that ALL modern cars have computers and a mile of code running them?

When I sold my Mercedes I didn't ask Benz if I could take my software with me...

 

[Apprunner]

Sure, but it also limits the pool of buyers. I could have someone kicking tires on a car at asking price and a serious buyer who doesn’t care about FSD for $3-4K less so it would be nice to be able to transfer it to a new Tesla instead when the value on resale isn’t being realized.

A corner case surely but when is more options a bad thing for the consumer?

True but right now, Tesla is trying hard to maximize their profits and i cant begrudge them of that since they aren't really profitable. Frankly, FSD isn't worth it right now and a subscription would be a wonderful option. At least when you sell it back to Tesla, they recognize a depreciated value of the FSD.

 

[Knightshade]

Sure, but it also limits the pool of buyers. I could have someone kicking tires on a car at asking price and a serious buyer who doesn’t care about FSD for $3-4K less so it would be nice to be able to transfer it to a new Tesla instead when the value on resale isn’t being realized.

A corner case surely but when is more options a bad thing for the consumer?

The model 3 currently has the best resale of any car on the market- so this appears to be an issue only in your imagination.

Tesla Model 3 Three-Year Depreciation Is 10%: EV Industry Average Is 52%

 

[one2many]

Well no one to date has posted a license agreement so it does not exist i
guess. I would assume that the OP feels like FSD is like adding pong to
mircosoft. Get a new computer and disable your old software, you get the
features transfered, why not.

 

[Knightshade]

Well no one to date has posted a license agreement so it does not exist i
guess. I would assume that the OP feels like FSD is like adding pong to
mircosoft. Get a new computer and disable your old software, you get the
features transfered, why not.

I already covered this (under US law anyway) - even cited to a court case explicitly stating software licenses are not transferable unless there's specific terms in the license saying they are.

here it is if you missed it-

Software Licenses Do Not Automatically Transfer in a Merger or Acquisition | IT Attorneys in Michigan: Foster Swift

In Cincom Systems, Inc v Novelis Corp., 581 F.3d 431 (6th Cir. Sept 2009), the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed a $460,000.00 intellectual property infringement claim in favor of a software licensor against a business for attempting to transfer its software license to a new company created by a merger.

Federal common law provides that copyright licenses (read software licenses) are unassignable absent express language to the contrary. Therefore, a merger, acquisition or corporate restructuring may constitute an impermissible transfer of an intellectual property license absent text in the license agreement to the contrary.

 

[one2many]

Dose Tesla have one and can you post its location.