Electric Car Holy Grail: The Facts Show No One Can Top Tesla

[brianman]

Talk to an EV owner who has driven on trips.

/raisehand
What questions do you have?

 

[gnuarm]

/raisehand
What questions do you have?

Ok, if you take a trip that is more than a tank of fuel, how much longer does it take in an EV than in an ICE auto? Can you take any route you want, or are you constrained to the routes with chargers?

 

[brianman]

(1) Ok, if you take a trip that is more than a tank of fuel, how much longer does it take in an EV than in an ICE auto? (2) Can you take any route you want, or are you constrained to the routes with chargers?

(1) Haven't measured recently, but with a Model S P85 limited to 90kW supercharging and personally limiting to Standard charge (92-93%) it took 17 hours for a trip from Mountain View, CA to Bellevue, WA in 2014. The same trip took 13 hours in a Chevy Equinox. The gap has become narrower as the supercharger network and vehicles improve. (Generally speaking the driving portion for both vehicles was speed limit +5 or +10 when traffic allowed.)
(2) I can take any route I want, but I choose to go along routes that align with superchargers where reasonable. The trip is much more enjoyable when you don't make it harder on yourself. As an example, when I wanted to take a trip in a gas car I never used a route that avoided all the gas stations just to challenge myself. In "modern times" 2019, I really don't have much trouble finding superchargers reasonably close to "on route" wherever I want to go. The real challenge is managing charge when the destination is a "high consumption" area like a track.

 

[dfwatt]

LOL

I am a realist. This is not about "perspective". It's about the facts. I've done a lot of reading about the batteries, the motors and have paid close attention to the behavior of my car and the reactions of people when I am honest with them. For probably 95% of car buyers, EVs are simply not ready for prime time as yet.

As I've said, the big issue is charging. Behind that is range. EVs will only become widespread once those two issues are dealt with.

Look at all the people who come here complaining that they can't charge at their apartment or condo. Talk to an EV owner who has driven on trips. While EVs don't have to be range limited to an extension cord, they just don't suit most people. I bought one because I have always wanted an EV, even long before you could buy one. One day I realized I could buy what I wanted without impacting my retirement, so I did. I also have a backup vehicle. Not many people are in that position or even care much about having an EV. It will take time and I don't know for sure Tesla will be around then.

Most people who believe in a whole host of non consensually validated claims think that they are realists. Join the group.

 

[gnuarm]

(1) Haven't measured recently, but with a Model S P85 limited to 90kW supercharging and personally limiting to Standard charge (92-93%) it took 17 hours for a trip from Mountain View, CA to Bellevue, WA in 2014. The same trip took 13 hours in a Chevy Equinox. The gap has become narrower as the supercharger network and vehicles improve. (Generally speaking the driving portion for both vehicles was speed limit +5 or +10 when traffic allowed.)

That is a huge difference in the minds of most. Someone pointed out in a recent thread that they find they are much more comfortable at the end of a long trip with the more frequent breaks. I get that. But this is a barrier for people who haven't done it. Tell someone a trip they do in a day is now a 17 hour drive and they will make that a two day trip. That's also a huge barrier.

(2) I can take any route I want, but I choose to go along routes that align with superchargers where reasonable. The trip is much more enjoyable when you don't make it harder on yourself. As an example, when I wanted to take a trip in a gas car I never used a route that avoided all the gas stations just to challenge myself. In "modern times" 2019, I really don't have much trouble finding superchargers reasonably close to "on route" wherever I want to go. The real challenge is managing charge when the destination is a "high consumption" area like a track.

You seem to be a bit off the rails on this. I don't know why you are talking about "making it hard on yourself". There are plenty of places I would like to go where the charging facilities are not so available and the trip would need to be planned carefully or just not practical. Again, a large barrier to EV adoption. Even though people may not take such trips often if ever, they just don't want to be constrained.

Heck, until they built a Supercharger in Haymarket, VA, a trip I often take was a PITA. My choice was going the way I've been going for the last 30 years where I have little traffic and the lowest price on gasoline in 200 miles, or take the worst, most congested highways in the US. Now the EV wants me to take the bad roads. Even with a supposed 289 mile range a round trip of 240 miles was hard to make. Even with charging overnight at friends homes it wasn't easy.

Now with the Supercharger in Haymarket I can easily make the trip without enduring nearly an hour of backups and don't even need to charge at home anymore. But there are still plenty of locations that need more charging and people want to see a visible presence of charging facilities before they make the leap.

 

[Eclectic]

That is a huge difference in the minds of most. Someone pointed out in a recent thread that they find they are much more comfortable at the end of a long trip with the more frequent breaks. I get that. But this is a barrier for people who haven't done it. Tell someone a trip they do in a day is now a 17 hour drive and they will make that a two day trip. That's also a huge barrier.




You seem to be a bit off the rails on this. I don't know why you are talking about "making it hard on yourself". There are plenty of places I would like to go where the charging facilities are not so available and the trip would need to be planned carefully or just not practical. Again, a large barrier to EV adoption. Even though people may not take such trips often if ever, they just don't want to be constrained.

Heck, until they built a Supercharger in Haymarket, VA, a trip I often take was a PITA. My choice was going the way I've been going for the last 30 years where I have little traffic and the lowest price on gasoline in 200 miles, or take the worst, most congested highways in the US. Now the EV wants me to take the bad roads. Even with a supposed 289 mile range a round trip of 240 miles was hard to make. Even with charging overnight at friends homes it wasn't easy.

Now with the Supercharger in Haymarket I can easily make the trip without enduring nearly an hour of backups and don't even need to charge at home anymore. But there are still plenty of locations that need more charging and people want to see a visible presence of charging facilities before they make the leap.

Kudos to Gnuarm for seeing both sides of the Tesla/EV issue. We recently got rid of our Tesla for exactly the reasons mentioned...We drive from California to Montana several times a year, and once in Montana we have long drives in areas not served by Superchargers. Any EV, even a Tesla, is a horribly flawed vehicle for such use, and this is the type of use many people who are not clustered in urban areas experience.

We got a BMW plug in hybrid to replace the P85D and it's made life so much better for trips. No worries about whether we are on a Supercharger route, no concerns about range, and the car is just a lot better for long trips than the Tesla was (i.e., more comfortable and more quiet).

There is NO WAY I'd ever go back to an EV unless the charging times came close to refueling with gas and there were as many fast chargers as there are currently gas stations.

Best thing we ever did was trade the Tesla for a plug in hybrid.

 

[brianman]

Tell someone a trip they do in a day is now a 17 hour drive and they will make that a two day trip. That's also a huge barrier.

Point of clarification: As you get older, even 13 hours of driving per day isn't recommended. When you split it into two days for those reasons, the difference between the two (gas and EV) is much narrower. My point being that only the "I'm driving straight through (multiple drivers perhaps, I'm in a hurry!" the gap is noticeable but more reasonable roadtripping (especially with kids or pets) the overall travel rate is much closer.

 

[brianman]

You seem to be a bit off the rails on this. I don't know why you are talking about "making it hard on yourself". There are plenty of places I would like to go where the charging facilities are not so available and the trip would need to be planned carefully or just not practical. Again, a large barrier to EV adoption. Even though people may not take such trips often if ever, they just don't want to be constrained.

Heck, until they built a Supercharger in Haymarket, VA, a trip I often take was a PITA. My choice was going the way I've been going for the last 30 years where I have little traffic and the lowest price on gasoline in 200 miles, or take the worst, most congested highways in the US. Now the EV wants me to take the bad roads. Even with a supposed 289 mile range a round trip of 240 miles was hard to make. Even with charging overnight at friends homes it wasn't easy.

Now with the Supercharger in Haymarket I can easily make the trip without enduring nearly an hour of backups and don't even need to charge at home anymore. But there are still plenty of locations that need more charging and people want to see a visible presence of charging facilities before they make the leap.

You seem to be projecting your experience onto mine, and discounting mine as "off the rails". I didn't say it would be good for your trips or your location. You're the one overstepping.

Even your example shows that area conditions matter, as does time. The addition of a single supercharger apparently made a huge difference for your route, apparently. I would encourage those in the "before" condition for their preferred routes be aggressive about contacting Tesla with suggestions for new supercharger locations.

 

[Evoforce]

Kudos to Gnuarm for seeing both sides of the Tesla/EV issue. We recently got rid of our Tesla for exactly the reasons mentioned...We drive from California to Montana several times a year, and once in Montana we have long drives in areas not served by Superchargers. Any EV, even a Tesla, is a horribly flawed vehicle for such use, and this is the type of use many people who are not clustered in urban areas experience.

We got a BMW plug in hybrid to replace the P85D and it's made life so much better for trips. No worries about whether we are on a Supercharger route, no concerns about range, and the car is just a lot better for long trips than the Tesla was (i.e., more comfortable and more quiet).

There is NO WAY I'd ever go back to an EV unless the charging times came close to refueling with gas and there were as many fast chargers as there are currently gas stations.

Best thing we ever did was trade the Tesla for a plug in hybrid.

It does take some desire to learn how to utilize your Tesla or your time while charging.

Usually, change is not easy for humans. I am glad however that you did at least buy a crutch car (hybrid). That will still help (some) with carbon issues.

You now have to deal with in your future of more maintenance on a dual propulsion system. We may all also have to deal with more inconvenience of a sicker planet ahead and how to cope with those changes.

Tesla is a great long distance car if you know/learn how to do it. I have great joy in taking my Tesla on short or long trips.

EV owners can buy/make adapters that can be helpful to use anywhere electricity is found. Generally, I don't have to use them but they can provide some piece of mind...

P.S. This thread is about the best EV's on the market and for what reasons compared to each other. Not about whether you have one, or want one, or don't want one.

 

[gnuarm]

Point of clarification: As you get older, even 13 hours of driving per day isn't recommended. When you split it into two days for those reasons, the difference between the two (gas and EV) is much narrower. My point being that only the "I'm driving straight through (multiple drivers perhaps, I'm in a hurry!" the gap is noticeable but more reasonable roadtripping (especially with kids or pets) the overall travel rate is much closer.

Yes, of course. But pick your thresholds and then you can define the extent of inconvenience caused by the longer times. So some 1 day trips will now be two day trips. Some two day trips will now be three day trips.

There is some irony in that I bought this car and so love driving it that I drive much more than I did before. I plan to take some cross country trips this year if I can get all my other matters dealt with. I used to get a discount on my mileage. Now I expect I'll be paying a lot more.

 

[brianman]

There is some irony in that I bought this car and so love driving it that I drive much more than I did before. I plan to take some cross country trips this year if I can get all my other matters dealt with. I used to get a discount on my mileage. Now I expect I'll be paying a lot more.

I guess I missed something. Who or what are you complaining about? That Tesla isn't innovating fast enough? That other EV manufacturers aren't making real products fast enough or investing in a decent charging infra? That physics limits are annoying at times? #confused

 

[gnuarm]

You seem to be projecting your experience onto mine, and discounting mine as "off the rails". I didn't say it would be good for your trips or your location. You're the one overstepping.

Even your example shows that area conditions matter, as does time. The addition of a single supercharger apparently made a huge difference for your route, apparently. I would encourage those in the "before" condition for their preferred routes be aggressive about contacting Tesla with suggestions for new supercharger locations.

I'm not discounting anything you said except for the comments about making "it harder on yourself" by not driving along a path with Superchargers and "I never used a route that avoided all the gas stations just to challenge myself" which is just silly and clearly "off the rails".

The point is not all paths have convenient Superchargers. I've looked at trips I would take and found I couldn't take my preferred route without going far out of my way because of the lack of charging. Then there are all the difficulties of planning a trip. The car is pretty useless for exploring "what if" scenarios. You have to use third party tools. Not always easy when on the road.

I'm not projecting anything in either direction. I'm speaking in general terms and giving examples. Sorry if I bother you.

 

[gnuarm]

I guess I missed something. Who or what are you complaining about? That Tesla isn't innovating fast enough? That other EV manufacturers aren't making real products fast enough or investing in a decent charging infra? That physics limits are annoying at times? #confused

Dude, I am discussing issues. So many times when people point out limitations and flaws in these cars and Tesla people react so emotionally.

Please read my posts and respond to the facts in them. Don't take any of this personally. It's not about that. It's about the cars.

 

[Evoforce]

Dude, I am discussing issues. So many times when people point out limitations and flaws in these cars and Tesla people react so emotionally.

Please read my posts and respond to the facts in them. Don't take any of this personally. It's not about that. It's about the cars.

This thread is about comparing EV's of different manufacture and explains why Tesla is ahead of the rest. Your posts seem to be off topic!

 

[brianman]

The point is not all paths have convenient Superchargers. I've looked at trips I would take and found I couldn't take my preferred route without going far out of my way because of the lack of charging. Then there are all the difficulties of planning a trip. The car is pretty useless for exploring "what if" scenarios. You have to use third party tools. Not always easy when on the road.

You're assuming that such paths are involved in the trips that I tend to take. They don't, thus I haven't had the same issues you apparently have.

No gas vehicle I've owned has provided route planning software, so it's odd to me that you expect Tesla to offer that with the vehicle.

Speaking for myself, I generally use evttripplanner.com for (typing time + ~2 minutes) to double-check the chargers on my route and the relative distance. It really isn't much effort or mental load these days. Especially with a vehicle with EPA range at/over 300 mi.

 

[brianman]

Dude, I am discussing issues. So many times when people point out limitations and flaws in these cars and Tesla people react so emotionally.

Please read my posts and respond to the facts in them. Don't take any of this personally. It's not about that. It's about the cars.

I don't think you answered my question regarding what I quoted. You spoke of losing something because of something. I'm unclear on the before and after that you were comparing. Can you elaborate?

 

[Evoforce]

You obviosuly missed my point, a declarative statement made as such without a qualifier, implies perpetual....
Photography Holy Grail: The Facts Show No One Can Top Kodak

As to your question, Tesla is clearly in the lead wrt the sedan field and the recharge field. The one is derived from a technological, software and battery advantage, giving Tesla a competitive advantage (though questionably, does every driver in the US want a car that gets software updates on an in/frequent basis, you never know what you're getting, and you don't know if stuff will continue to work or degrade - really? No not everyone wants BETA software for the vehilce they depend on. So how much of an advantage that aspect is remains to be seem). The other, recharge, is due to them establishing the network early ahead of everyone else, whom everyone else is remains to be seen btw, and how long that will last is eroding everday.

As for Bob Lutz, what did you want him to say...I mean really did you expect Mr Lutz to get up there and state that they suck and lag behind in almost every aspect of the EV world because they blew it on the Volt while they concetrated on big pickups? Of course he isn't going to say that - he's old school and trying to hide his true feelings, not get fired by the BOD, and keep his bonus.

Just remember Henry Ford didn't introduce the Automobile, Karl Benz did. Everyone thinks of Ford because he/they were able to bring the auto to the masses. Fact is 20 years earlier autos were produced for the elite/well to do that could aford them, but Ford started the production line, and brought autos to the masses. Benz won and Ford lost the first battle, Nowadays it could be argued that Ford has won the war and Benz has lost it - it's an everchanging landscape and only wrt to Tesla have I ever seen a headline like The Facts Show No One Can Top Tesla.
Dzm

The Tesla article can only state the facts of what we currently know. No crystal ball or benefit of hindsight. The reasons stated in the article are compelling.

 

[RLC3]

We bought our Model S about three years ago. Since that time a number of new features have been added to the car that did not exist, and were not being discussed when we bought it. Other features have dramatically improved over that period of time. (To be fair some of the improvement was sorely needed because the features didn't work at all well when we bought the car. Yes, I'm talking to you EAP.) All of this improvement was no cost to me. I call that a big competitive advantage. As with a number of other Tesla innovations I think this one is going to move the whole industry in this direction over time.

Some people do worry about software updates breaking their car. I've worried about that too. But none of the roughly 30 updates we have received caused any problems that we noticed. I spent decades building big scale software, and my experience with that is part of why I worry some. But I take my hat off the the Tesla software people. Real time control software of this complexity is no joke to build or test, and they are doing a stellar job. Stellar.

 

[Eclectic]

It does take some desire to learn how to utilize your Tesla or your time while charging.

Usually, change is not easy for humans. I am glad however that you did at least buy a crutch car (hybrid). That will still help (some) with carbon issues.

You now have to deal with in your future of more maintenance on a dual propulsion system. We may all also have to deal with more inconvenience of a sicker planet ahead and how to cope with those changes.

Tesla is a great long distance car if you know/learn how to do it. I have great joy in taking my Tesla on short or long trips.

EV owners can buy/make adapters that can be helpful to use anywhere electricity is found. Generally, I don't have to use them but they can provide some piece of mind...

P.S. This thread is about the best EV's on the market and for what reasons compared to each other. Not about whether you have one, or want one, or don't want one.

Well, I drove Teslas for about 5 years, so I don't think I have anything to learn about using one long distance. And since I'm not one who thinks that the world will implode in 10 years, carbon issues don't come into play when I buy a car. As for future maintenance, I doubt I'll have any problems. I take care of my vehicles and have never had any serious maintenance issues, whether ICE, EV or now, plug in hybrids.

The truth is that for me, and for so many other people, plug in hybrids are the superior option.

 

[gnuarm]

I don't think you answered my question regarding what I quoted. You spoke of losing something because of something. I'm unclear on the before and after that you were comparing. Can you elaborate?

Sorry, I looked back and I can't tell what message you are responding to. Perhaps you can quote it?

Oh, I see it. I was talking about the insurance cost perhaps? I used to get a discount because my mileage was so low when I drove only the truck. Now I am looking at perhaps 20,000 miles a year in the EV.