Elon: "Feature complete for full self driving this year"

[diplomat33]

Wait, what in the world is "Automatic driving on city streets"?
Is that really what's on the order page or are you ppl joking?

yes that is really on the order page.

I think Tesla meant to say "automated" not "automatic", ie "automated driving on city streets". Notice, they use the same language for NOA. Basically, I take it to mean that the car will automate all the driving on city streets.

But FSD as it is now, is EAP renamed. What do those that paid the extra for FSD get? The urban driving and traffic lights seem to be included for all at this point?

No. Traffic lights and urban driving is not part of current EAP. "FSD" is EAP + urban driving. And those who pre-paid for "FSD" will get everything under the coming later this year. So they will get the urban driving and traffic lights. That will not be part of current EAP. Those with just EAP only get the features above (NOA, Autopark and Advanced Summon).

 

[electronblue]

Basically, Tesla is being more honest now. They are sticking to what they can actually deliver NOW. So the reason they are only promising L2 features is because that is what they are ready to actually give us NOW. The reason they are not promising future autonomy is because they don't want to make future promises that they may or may not be able to keep. It does not mean that "FSD" won't be autonomous in the future, Tesla is just not ready to make that promise yet. The silver lining is that if Tesla is ready at some point to make "FSD" truly autonomous, they will tell us.

And I know that folks are disappointed because Tesla did promise L4/5 autonomy many times for years. But let's face it: Tesla made promises way before they were in a position to keep them. So what was Tesla supposed to do? What do you do when you make a promise that you can't keep? Either you give up and completely renege on your promise. That's not an option for Tesla as it would mean lawsuits and a huge loss of reputation and money. Or Tesla tells customers to wait even longer, still promoting the hope that they will still deliver L4 autonomy "soon". That was not going to work either since many customers who pre-paid for FSD have already been waiting a long time. Tesla is doing the only thing really that they can do: reset things to more realistic promises that they can keep now, deliver something tangible to customers and avoid any more future promises.

Much of this is fine but what I worry about is this: Will this move in reality allow Tesla to abandon the old plan in silence? Bait and switch and all that. If they are this far from the goal, how great are the chances their suite is even up to this task.

Will AP2 cars (with HW3 upgrades) ever see coast to coast Summon for example or will the endgame be something new renamed ”FSD” and then maintenance releases only at some point when the sensor suite or something is upgraded again...

 

[rreedd]

Much of this is fine but what I worry about is this: Will this move in reality allow Tesla to abandon the old plan in silence? Bait and switch and all that. If they are this far from the goal, how great are the chances their suite is even up to this task.

Will AP2 cars (with HW3 upgrades) ever see coast to coast Summon for example or will the endgame be something new renamed ”FSD” and then maintenance releases only at some point when the sensor suite or something is upgraded again...

At this rate, those expecting to upgrade they HW2.5 to HW3 as promised by Elon might also just forget about it since they now have FSD.

 

[diplomat33]

At this rate, those expecting to upgrade they HW2.5 to HW3 as promised by Elon might also just forget about it since they now have FSD.

No they don't. They won't get the "automatic city driving", traffic light and stop sign recognition. Those features are FSD only, not EAP.

 

[Bladerskb]

Actually, if you read the description for Summon it sounds a lot like Park Seek:
"your parked car will find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really"

So I am thinking that the Summon on the website is the same as what we used to refer to as Smart Summon.

That certainly sounds like self-driving to me. And the car auto parking on its own. Again, that sounds like self-driving. And Summon that is described as the car finding you in a parking lot on its own. Again, that sounds like self-driving because it is describing the car acting on its own without you touching the wheel...this new Summon where the car can drive on its own in a parking lot without you in it. So now that Tesla has features that are ready to be "self-driving" features, it makes sense to roll them all up under the same FSD umbrella.

Is it?

or is it that you drive into a store parking lot for example, drive to the entrance, set it as pick up then drive and park. Then you can from your phone hold a dead-man switch with live cam feed from the car's cameras as the car retraces it track while avoiding obstacles to the pickup spot at 5 MPH?

 

[diplomat33]

I am seeing some confusion about EAP and FSD. Let me try to clear things up.

If you have HW2 now with EAP, you get to keep Nav on AP, Auto Park and you get the upcoming Smart Summon. So you essentially get the half of "FSD" that already came with EAP. But you don't get the "automatic city driving", traffic light and stop sign recognition. Those features will require that you prepaid or pay for FSD.

 

[Bladerskb]

Wrong. The site says that FSD is not autonomous NOW. Tesla is not saying that FSD will never be autonomous ever.

Where do you see the promise of it being "Level 5" and "driverless" or without touching or doing anything in the future? As have been promised repeatedly by elon. I'm waiting.. Remember Tesla has already defined full self driving as a Level 2 driver assistance that requires supervision.

 

[mongo]

Where do you see the promise of it being "Level 5" and "driverless" or without touching or doing anything in the future? As have been promised repeatedly by elon. I'm waiting.. Remember Tesla has already defined full self driving as a Level 2 driver assistance that requires supervision.

Huh? The website sections you quoted call out level 4 FSD...
Or are you basing your argument off the development path that has nags at the beginning for FSD functions and extrapolating that to mean it always will?

 

[diplomat33]

Where do you see the promise of it being "Level 5" and "driverless" or without touching or doing anything in the future? As have been promised repeatedly by elon. I'm waiting.. Remember Tesla has already defined full self driving as a Level 2 driver assistance that requires supervision.

I am not sure what you are getting at. Yes, Tesla promised L5 before but now they are clarifying that the "FSD" option that we will get this year will not be L5 but be self-driving with driver attention but that the system will improve to full self-driving over time.

 

[strangecosmos]

A new quote from Elon today, via The Verge:

“I’m driving a development version of Autopilot right now, and it works extremely well recognizing traffic lights and stop signs,” Musk added. “It’s starting to make turns effectively in complex urban environments.”
​

P.S. According to what Elon said in the ARK Invest podcast, the roadmap for Tesla’s Full Self-Driving product looks like this:

Step 1. FSD is a Level 2 system. It covers all driving, so you can drive from your garage to your workplace parking lot and back without ever steering, signalling, braking, or pushing the accelerator. However, it still requires drivers to monitor it and intervene if necessary, like Autopilot. Elon expects development to be done by the end of 2019.

Step 2. FSD becomes a Level 4 system (or possibly Level 5, but by the strict definition of Level 5 that would require activation in every country on Earth, including Vatican City). Human monitoring and intervention is no longer required. Elon guesses this will be ready by the end of 2020.

 

[Bladerskb]

Huh? The website sections you quoted call out level 4 FSD...
Or are you basing your argument off the development path that has nags at the beginning for FSD functions and extrapolating that to mean it always will?

What section? where? I posted three individual pictures.

I am not sure what you are getting at. Yes, Tesla promised L5 before but now they are clarifying that the "FSD" option that we will get this year will not be L5 but be self-driving with driver attention but that the system will improve to full self-driving over time.

That's my point, when you order what you agree to is not "Level 5", "driverless", "no driver input required", "no supervision". No where does it say the supervision will go away, therefore you can't sue based on what you agreed on.

 

[iTech]

Step 1. FSD is a Level 2 system. It covers all driving, so you can drive from your garage to your workplace parking lot and back without ever steering, signalling, braking, or pushing the accelerator. However, it still requires drivers to monitor it and intervene if necessary, like Autopilot. Elon expects development to be done by the end of 2019.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon, even on HW3.

 

[mongo]

What section? where? I posted three individual pictures.

All of the third and most of the second...
"Fully self driving in almost all circumstances"

 

[Bladerskb]

All of the third and most of the second...
"Fully self driving in almost all circumstances"

Full self driving = Level 2 driver assistance according to Tesla.

They already defined full self driving as a Level 2 driver assistance not as a Level 4/5 system on the order page.
Tesla defense in court would be we already have full self driving in almost all circumstances. Elon already said that when asked about FSD. He said, "we already have full self driving on the highway".

And about the third picture, Tesla ALREADY says current AP is more than 2x better than humans. So that statement is completely worthless because its a stat they fabricate/control and they can wield, mold, bend, and shape it anyway they want and we already seen them do it already with the quarterly "autopilot safety report".

No where on the order page or the model page does it talk about a driverless, level 4/5 or a system that doesn't require supervision or no driver input. Not now or in the future. I'm still waiting.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Full self driving = Level 2 driver assistance according to Tesla.

They already defined full self driving as a Level 2 driver assistance not as a Level 4/5 system on the order page.
Tesla defense in court would be we already have full self driving in almost all circumstances. Elon already said that when asked about FSD. He said, "we already have full self driving on the highway".

And about the third picture, Tesla ALREADY says current AP is more than 2x better than humans. So that statement is completely worthless because its a stat they fabricate/control and they can wield, mold, bend, and shape it anyway they want and we already seen them do it already with the quarterly "autopilot safety report".

No where on the order page or the model page does it talk about a driverless, level 4/5 or a system that doesn't require supervision or no driver input. Not now or in the future. I'm still waiting.

On the order page there is badly written blurb about it.

But, the FSD upgrade that's on peoples accounts have a description that's better written.

""The current features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates."

Basically it's a L2 system with a non-commitment for L3 and above.

I got one of two things I was hoping for.

I wanted EAP to disappear as it made things messy for the HW3.

I wanted some promise of L3 for FSD.

in any case it's worth the $3K I paid for it. Why? For the insanity. Nothing could possibly go wrong.

I'll be pretty happy if they let me keep the HW2.5 computer?

I could assist them in removing it for them before I hand over the keys. Err, I mean the card.

 

[Bladerskb]

On the order page there is badly written blurb about it.

But, the FSD upgrade that's on peoples accounts have a description that's better written.

""The current features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates."

Ask yourself, why did they leave out those key words "The future use of these features without supervision" on the order and main model page? Sounds to me like a page that they believe is not legally liable because the upgrade page isn't an order page?

This whole thing is fishy. Why leave out these key important string of words in the order page? This must have been done on purpose.
You know why? because others read the statement on the order page and said it made no sense. Now i know why, they removed these words from it.

Do you have a full pic of the page?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Ask yourself, why did they leave out those key words "The future use of these features without supervision" on the order and main model page? Sounds to me like a page that they believe is not legally liable because the upgrade page isn't an order page?

This whole thing is fishy. Why leave out these key important string of words in the order page? This must have been done on purpose.
You know why? because others read the statement on the order page and said it made no sense. Now i know why, they removed these words from it.

Do you have a full pic of the page?

My interpretation is it's simply incompetency of the person who wrote it.

The two order pages should match, but they don't. One is on the order page of the car, and the other is the order page of the feature when a person already has the car.

I'm not the one that spotted the discrepancy. It was pointed out on this thread.

FSD on city streets coming later this year with reliability far in excess of human drivers!

 

[electronblue]

My interpretation is it's simply incompetency of the person who wrote it.

The two order pages should match, but they don't. One is on the order page of the car, and the other is the order page of the feature when a person already has the car.

I'm not the one that spotted the discrepancy. It was pointed out on this thread.

FSD on city streets coming later this year with reliability far in excess of human drivers!

Fair. Actually, the ”without supervision” text does appear in some of the Design Studios as well so there certainly has been some iterating on the text. I guess we will see over time as Tesla edits these which really is the direction they intend to take with their messaging.

I don’t doubt the goal is still for Tesla to achieve autonomous driving. It is just that the promise got that much thinner for people buying new cars today and that in itself does not bode too well for those who have already bought into FSD either.

The question is not will Tesla some day achieve Level 5 or coast to coast Summon or any of those promises for some future Teslas made. The question is will existing owners get it for their cars as announced or will they simply eventually appear on some future suite — or so late that they are simply not realistically relevant for existing cars’ lifetimes.

 

[lunitiks]

incompetency of the person who wrote it.

Notice the informal intensifier «Really.» at the end of the Summon description. I wonder who decided that. «Like Really, dude. Really.»

 

[electronblue]

Notice the informal intensifier «Really.» at the end of the Summon description. I wonder who decided that. «Like Really, dude. Really.»

Tesla has been promising Summon finding the owner on private property since AP1 days. I guess they need all the intensifiers they can think of to avoid being the boy who cried wolf too many times.

Interestingly Tesla lists this as a current feature for cars one can order with delivery times of 2 weeks or maybe even less. That firmware update must be right around the corner, right? Right? Guys? Anyone?