Elon: "Feature complete for full self driving this year"

[willow_hiller]

Hi, all. I got a notice when I started up my Model X that "Full self-driving update is complete.". However, I can't see anywhere where I can activate this. On normal autopilot and Autosteer, I don't notice it doing anything different than it has before. I just got this notice maybe two days ago. Has anyone else gotten this notification? And do you know what is needed to activate this?

I think Green said this is contained in 2020.12.1, but not implicitly activated. Tesla may remotely activate the feature with this version, or may wait for the next firmware version to activate it.

 

[Cheburashka]

No chance in hell I’d run something with a list of warnings that long. Just not even going to risk it, so no data from me. Takes too long to go through the parts replacement process to risk the damage this will cause. And since Tesla assumes no liability, sorry but no thanks I’m not a multi billion dollar business. Honestly, Tesla should be embarrassed to release something like that.

Exactly. I wish they could have at least made in not stop at green lights. I guess their confidence in the system is so low, that wasn't an option.

 

[willow_hiller]

Ah. I didn't read the Note! "at any time after touchscreen displays the read stop line"
I never understand how people are able to drive this car and look at the screen at the same time. When I'm approaching a light I'm not looking down at the screen! Seems like a beep or steering wheel vibrate should be an option.

View attachment 526807

Agreed. Even with both hands on the wheel, I've been in situations where the torque on each hand balances out so the car thinks I'm not holding it. And it's gotten to rapid blue flashes on the screen before my wife has noticed. Audio alerts, or maybe even a small steering servo jiggle would be a good way to alert drivers. Are we sure there isn't some sort of alert? I don't think the one clip we've seen had audio.

 

[Mardak]

No chance in hell I’d run something with a list of warnings that long. Just not even going to risk it, so no data from me.

I think you just figured out why Tesla set up the "accelerator at green light confirmation." By not using Autopilot, you are then always pressing the accelerator to go through the green light and not pressing the accelerator for red lights thus allowing useful data collection from all drivers whether they're using Autopilot or not on city streets.

 

[linux-works]

I'm really not sure about overloading a UI element that has a VERY well defined meaning. the accel pedal.

we train our minds and our muscle memory to know that that 'button' has ONE function, at all times, statelessly.

for tesla to overload that function - just seems very wrong, to me.

now I have to really be 'stateful' about pressing a key pedal is an ACK or really a GO FASTER NOW button.

I am quite sure people are going to press it thinking they are in ACK mode and get sudden accel when they didn't want it. and if the answer is to have hysteresis so that the ACK press doesn't lurch forward, then it will feel like the control isn't consistent. how long do you press the pedal to give it an ACK and if pressed, does it time-out from ACK and then go into GO FAST mode? just too convoluted.

 

[willow_hiller]

I'm really not sure about overloading a UI element that has a VERY well defined meaning. the accel pedal.

we train our minds and our muscle memory to know that that 'button' has ONE function, at all times, statelessly.

for tesla to overload that function - just seems very wrong, to me.

now I have to really be 'stateful' about pressing a key pedal is an ACK or really a GO FASTER NOW button.

I am quite sure people are going to press it thinking they are in ACK mode and get sudden accel when they didn't want it. and if the answer is to have hysteresis so that the ACK press doesn't lurch forward, then it will feel like the control isn't consistent. how long do you press the pedal to give it an ACK and if pressed, does it time-out from ACK and then go into GO FAST mode? just too convoluted.

There are two options. You can press the accelerator pedal, or you can pull back on the right gear stalk. I don't think pulling backwards or pushing forwards on the right gear stalk currently have any other functions.

 

[linux-works]

the stalks are inherently overloaded, so that's fine. we are trained not to think of those as mono-functional.

its the 'gas pedal' (sorry, habit..) that I object to, getting a 2nd semantic.

as the kids, today, say, "it has ONE job"

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

There are two options. You can press the accelerator pedal, or you can pull back on the right gear stalk. I don't think pulling backwards or pushing forwards on the right gear stalk currently have any other functions.

It said by pushing down the gear selector.

The gear selector is totally overloaded.

But, I fail to see how the accelerator pedal is. The false braking of TACC does a good job training our muscle memory that the pedal is to tell the car "What are you doing? Stop slowing down you idiot".

In manual driving it's the accelerator, but in AP/TACC it's the override button. You don't jam it down, but you feather it.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

What are peoples thoughts on whether this gets released to the entire fleet?

My initial impression was that it would never get released to the entire fleet because it seems primarily geared towards data collection. But, I couldn't think of a case where a passive method wouldn't have worked just as well. I decided to stop thinking about it, and to come back a few days later to see if anyone answered that. But, I don't see any good answers so far that justifies the existence of stopping at every light for training purposes.

So now I'm wondering if I was wrong, and that it will get released after validation. It fulfills the "Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs." requirement of FSD so that means Tesla can likely recognize additional revenue from FSD. Even though it's not what we were expecting.

Is that really a bad thing? Is it any worse than what we have now?

What we have now will blow through a light or a stop sign if the user isn't paying attention. Sure sometimes it will warn them, and the warning might or might not give them enough time to slow down. So in a sense switching to this would be better. It might be annoying enough that those who use AP on roads with stop lights eventually get annoyed enough that they stop doing that.

I simply can't see using this on a road with lots of traffic lights.

Now where I do see this useful is on highways with occasional traffic lights. Even if the car does start to slow gradually before a green light I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. If the person in front of me slowed a bit before a green light on a high speed road it wouldn't really bug me. I'd likely think "Oh, nervous are we?"

It might cause a few rear end crashes, but I think overall this method will reduce accidents over the entire fleet.

 

[linux-works]

I wonder if there was thought to rear sensors and detecting the chance of a rear end collision.

suppose the car starts to slow down at a green (sigh) and the car behind you is NOT expecting it (he won't) - and is closing in on you. it would seem to be an optimization to forgo the slow-down (in progress), speed up and just go thru the green light.

is there any logic implemented that detects rear-ending danger likelihood? with all the phantom braking, I'm not sure it ever 'cares' about what is going on in the rear area.

 

[diplomat33]

What are peoples thoughts on whether this gets released to the entire fleet?

My initial impression was that it would never get released to the entire fleet because it seems primarily geared towards data collection. But, I couldn't think of a case where a passive method wouldn't have worked just as well. I decided to stop thinking about it, and to come back a few days later to see if anyone answered that. But, I don't see any good answers so far that justifies the existence of stopping at every light for training purposes.

So now I'm wondering if I was wrong, and that it will get released after validation. It fulfills the "Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs." requirement of FSD so that means Tesla can likely recognize additional revenue from FSD. Even though it's not what we were expecting.

Is that really a bad thing? Is it any worse than what we have now?

What we have now will blow through a light or a stop sign if the user isn't paying attention. Sure sometimes it will warn them, and the warning might or might not give them enough time to slow down. So in a sense switching to this would be better. It might be annoying enough that those who use AP on roads with stop lights eventually get annoyed enough that they stop doing that.

I simply can't see using this on a road with lots of traffic lights.

Now where I do see this useful is on highways with occasional traffic lights. Even if the car does start to slow gradually before a green light I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. If the person in front of me slowed a bit before a green light on a high speed road it wouldn't really bug me. I'd likely think "Oh, nervous are we?"

It might cause a few rear end crashes, but I think overall this method will reduce accidents over the entire fleet.

Well, according to Tesla's roll out process, they release a feature wide after Early Access. So I do expect Tesla to release this feature wide in a week or so after EA has had a go with it. Of course, it is entirely possible that EA could find issues which delay the release to the wide fleet, like we saw happen with Smart Summon.

 

[diplomat33]

I wonder if there was thought to rear sensors and detecting the chance of a rear end collision.

suppose the car starts to slow down at a green (sigh) and the car behind you is NOT expecting it (he won't) - and is closing in on you. it would seem to be an optimization to forgo the slow-down (in progress), speed up and just go thru the green light.

is there any logic implemented that detects rear-ending danger likelihood? with all the phantom braking, I'm not sure it ever 'cares' about what is going on in the rear area.

Well, right now, the only rear sensor that could detect a rear end is the rear camera. I am sure the rear camera is stitched into the vision system. But up to now, we've not seen any AP behavior that would indicate it is responding to possible rear ends. But that is definitely something that AP would need to be able to handle if Tesla wants to do FSD.

 

[linux-works]

I really wonder why no rear radar. and since there is no wiper on the rear camera, its essentially 'unreliable'. at least the front camera has the windshield wiper and even defroster, inside, to help.

to ignore the rear like that - hmmm. not sure its how I would have done things.

 

[diplomat33]

I really wonder why no rear radar. and since there is no wiper on the rear camera, its essentially 'unreliable'. at least the front camera has the windshield wiper and even defroster, inside, to help.

to ignore the rear like that - hmmm. not sure its how I would have done things.

Yeah, that is why I think the FSD hardware should have included a rear radar for these situations. It would add redundancy to avoid rear ends but also detect fast moving cars in the blind spots in case the rear camera misses it.

 

[Snuffysasa]

Yeah, that is why I think the FSD hardware should have included a rear radar for these situations. It would add redundancy to avoid rear ends but also detect fast moving cars in the blind spots in case the rear camera misses it.

Yep. This is why Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, GM, FCA, and more than likely other OEMs that I don't know about... use rear radar for these reasons.

 

[metaxaos]

now I have to really be 'stateful' about pressing a key pedal is an ACK or really a GO FASTER NOW button.

Why do you think it’s mutually exclusive? Right now you can press the pedal while on Autosteer to temporarily override the speed and make it go faster. With light recognition you will also temporarily make car go faster, at the same time confirming the light pass.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Why do you think it’s mutually exclusive? Right now you can press the pedal while on Autosteer to temporarily override the speed and make it go faster. With light recognition you will also temporarily make car go faster, at the same time confirming the light pass.

That seems like it would be super annoying especially for passengers. I guess you could get good at very delicately pressing the accelerator.
I don't think state confusion of the accelerator pedal would really be an issue. You're still pressing it to "go". Does anyone know conclusively how they implemented the confirmation?

 

[Mardak]

With light recognition you will also temporarily make car go faster, at the same time confirming the light pass.

Pressing the accelerator doesn't always make the car go faster when on Autopilot. E.g., if Autopilot is normally driving say 40mph at 20% acceleration, you can press the pedal to 10% acceleration, and Autopilot will maintain its speed. This is useful currently when a car turns in front of you and Autopilot wants to drop from 20% acceleration to -20% acceleration, but having your foot on the accelerator prevents the hard braking.

So I would guess the green light confirmation requires any amount of accelerator pedal press, and it shouldn't be difficult to confirm without changing the speed of the car. Additionally, it looks like the confirmation starts at 500ft and begins to slow down at 300ft, so at 35mph, that's almost 4 seconds to confirm without Autopilot jerking around passengers. Although with close intersections, Autopilot might not have this "grace period" and start slowing immediately.

 

[metaxaos]

I guess you could get good at very delicately pressing the accelerator.

Existing response while on TACC is pretty muffled already, there should be no problem with adjusting the pressure. More annoyance might come from the initial deceleration as such. On that video demonstration regen was really intense, according to the green bar length.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Existing response while on TACC is pretty muffled already, there should be no problem with adjusting the pressure. More annoyance might come from the initial deceleration as such. On that video demonstration regen was really intense, according to the green bar length.

As @Mardak said above when you press the accelerator while using TACC it only accelerates when your input exceeds the input the computer is already giving. So driving on flat ground or uphill you could confirm without causing any acceleration blip. Maybe they'll also add a "dead zone" for when going downhill.
There is a prompt on the screen before the deceleration. I'm not sure how'd you'd notice though if you're looking at the road.