Elon Musk in Munich: "Free long-distance trave for ALL FUTURE VEHICLES!!!"

[deonb]

Allow me to disagree with you. The $2,000 is for the hardware that is required to be able to use the Supercharger stations, but the electricity that you charge into your battery pack actually is for free, meaning that there is no amount to be paid each time that you use the Supercharger stations.

There's virtually no hardware in the car for supercharging. It's a straight circuit from the SuperCharger to the battery. All of the actual hardware are in the SuperChargers themselves.

Quite literally - a SuperCharger is made up of 12 of these things stacked on top of each other:
http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/2nd-onboard-charger

When you install them in the car, they connect directly to your battery. So just imagine you take them out of the car, and put them into the SuperCharger - what do you have left in the car to connect them? Basically a couple of longer wires and some software to disable the ones in the car when the charge port starts feeding DC. That's not $2000. It's not even $200. Not even at Tesla prices.

The $2000 is for access to the SuperCharger network itself. Elon even mentioned that in a way himself during the 2013 Shareholder meeting as part of his idea on how to monetize the Tesla Superchargers to other car manufacturers - specifically that he will only sign deals with manufacturers if they agree to also use the Tesla prepaid model rather than a pay-as-you-go model.

 

[JRP3]

Since SC can be enabled with software after the sale it's obviously already built in every car. It also costs Tesla much less for the hardware, probably just a set of contactors that switch the feed directly to the pack, maybe $200-$400 their cost.
Regarding the semantics, the charging is free, access to the charging network is not.

 

[chickensevil]

I respectfully disagree that there isn't much to it. Is it at the cost of 2,000 per car? certainly not. But I wouldn't be surprised if it looked like 200 or whatever. You have both a hardware and software aspect to it. It isn't just a switch to dump the power into the battery directly because you also have a mechanism to drop the charge down over time. Hence the all too important taper curve (did they ever get that changed to be a bit better?). It isn't as simple as just flipping a switch and pumping power into the battery. Maybe we are arguing semantics at this point so I will just move on.

I guess the point I was trying to make is, whatever the real cost associated with adding a DC fast charge into the car is, they are eating that cost should you "opt out" of it. I would figure it is a small amount, since the 2k is likely going a lot toward the system itself.

In any case, I do want to see them start adding in solar to a lot more sites, since that is where the real sustainability is going to come in. The 2k essentially more than covers the initial cost of installation, but they certainly need something for long term to pay for the energy usage in order to keep it free to customers while not being a huge money sink for the company. They certainly have plenty of time to do this before they start to dry it up (even if you did 1400 supercharger miles a year for 20 years it would only come out to around 1100$ in energy costs). It is definitely a smart and easily profitable business model... assuming it stays relegated to "long distance" only. If that 1400 number starts increasing... at 2800 miles you would be unprofitable in 20 years, at 5600 miles you would be unprofitable in 10 and at the full average 12500 you are looking at killing it in 4 years flat. So making it your "everyday" charger option, you are going to have to come up with a better solution to generate some kind of revenue (i.e. solar power) to offset this energy cost and extend your time.

I would think it is fair to say that at some point you will have so many chargers out there that people would easily use up to half of their miles on supercharging. But the car can easily last longer than 250k miles.

P.S. Underlying math on the cost estimation. 11 cent per kWh, if the efficiency is on the same level as the HPWC that comes out to 4 cents a mile assuming you are getting the "optimal" 300 miles per charge. This number is likely way off base, however given the expected drop in energy costs I feel it somewhat balances out over time. The 1400 was assuming 2 yearly "long distance" trips of 500 miles one way, and your first supercharge at 150 miles into the trip.

 

[Benz]

A Tesla Model E with free long-distance travel is much more compelling than without it. This (with free long-distance travel) will help Tesla Motors to get sooner to a higher market share. It's that important.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I thought it was pretty obvious the plan for Tesla was to go with a pre-paid system for all it's future vehicles. It basically costs more to meter the electricity consumption than the electricity itself, so a payment model where you charge for each supercharge is significantly more expensive and inconvenient for the user than a lump sum up-front. This is the problem with all rapid charger networks that try to charge enough to make a profit - they charge so much that people shy away from using the network, and some customers simply aren't able to use their stations when they show up without the right card. The end result is bankruptcy.

The SC-network is definitely one of the most important selling points for Tesla. If BMW came with an i5 with 300 mile EPA-certified range, 0-60 mph time of 3.5 seconds, 200 mph top speed and $1000 cheaper than a Tesla, I'd still think long and hard before buying an i5, because I wouldn't be able to use it for long-distance travel. Maybe I'd still buy an i5, but I would have to assess the ease and cost of getting a different car for the long trips. If I owned a PHEV/gas car, rentals were super easy/cheap or I could easily swap cars with a friend/relative, I would probably buy an i5, but not otherwise.

 

[WarpedOne]

This (with free long-distance travel) will help Tesla Motors to get sooner to a higher market share. It's that important.

Building 100.000 cars in a year is hard. Selling 100.000 cars in a year is still much much harder.

Nissan Leaf just managed to climb to 100k after many years of production. Tesla aims to reach that number much faster.
Easy/fast/convenient long distance traveling is a deal breaker for mass adoption of EVs. Without it, you have a niche product aka leaf. With SC network up and running, sky is the limit...

 

[VolkerP]

There's virtually no hardware in the car for supercharging. It's a straight circuit from the SuperCharger to the battery. All of the actual hardware are in the SuperChargers themselves.

Have to disagree here. There is hardware in the car and it is pretty expensive. It's called a high voltage junction box. Think of 2 very big relays that can route 400A to different circuits. Or, in case of EU charge port with 4 power carrying poles, they probably need 4 relays.
When asked why the Roadster can't use superchargers, Elon answered "because it lacks a high voltage junction box". Consistent answer yesterday in Munich, if Mercedes B-Class e-cell would be capable of supercharging: "It has no high voltage junction box but that was Daimler's decision." Toyota RAV4 EV supercharging? Nope. Guess why.

 

[Benz]

Have to disagree here. There is hardware in the car and it is pretty expensive. It's called a high voltage junction box. Think of 2 very big relays that can route 400A to different circuits. Or, in case of EU charge port with 4 power carrying poles, they probably need 4 relays.
When asked why the Roadster can't use superchargers, Elon answered "because it lacks a high voltage junction box". Consistent answer yesterday in Munich, if Mercedes B-Class e-cell would be capable of supercharging: "It has no high voltage junction box but that was Daimler's decision." Toyota RAV4 EV supercharging? Nope. Guess why.

That's right.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

@chickensevil

They may be eating opt-out cost, but that's why the deferred cost is higher.

Tesla isn't going to add many canopies until later. It's a lot of capital investment required and deferring will end up with a better, cheaper canopy. Their focus will be on expanding the Supercharger network and investing in expanded production, including a giga-factiry to lower battery production costs, and cheaper batteries would help with the other piece of the Supercharger puzzle, energy storage.

 

[JRP3]

It isn't just a switch to dump the power into the battery directly because you also have a mechanism to drop the charge down over time.

The existing BMS in the car signals the SC to taper the charge in relation to temperature and voltage, but it's not a separate system in the car for SC use, it's just the BMS that also controls the regular on board car charger as well. So I expect that ultimately it is just a big switch, i.e. a set of contactors.

- - - Updated - - -

It basically costs more to meter the electricity consumption than the electricity itself,

I wouldn't think so since each car already has that data and Tesla can access it.

 

[chickensevil]

The existing BMS in the car signals the SC to taper the charge in relation to temperature and voltage, but it's not a separate system in the car for SC use, it's just the BMS that also controls the regular on board car charger as well. So I expect that ultimately it is just a big switch, i.e. a set of contactors.

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't think so since each car already has that data and Tesla can access it.

FWIW, here is the charging information taken from the emergency response manual. You can see the twin chargers positioned between the High Voltage Junction Box. My guess is this serves multiple purposes. taking the DC converted power from the twin chargers, taking the power from the regenerative breaking, and lastly taking the direct DC input from the supercharger.

I am sure it ultimately came down to a cost benefit to just stick it in all the cars, since it serves more use than JUST supercharger access. It is a combined system. I wouldn't expect replacement of that entire part to be cheap (heck, a single charger is like 1200, so I would guess that part would run you around the same cost at least). Now how much of that part is dedicated and designed for the superchargers? How much cheaper would it have been for them to ditch that functionality? It is hard to guess because it is a combined system.

I would wager that they have sunk a HUGE amount of R&D cost into that single functionality, and are still sinking R&D into trying to design something that can handle an even higher power input than 120/135. So at the very least, they need to be making enough money to offset the R&D costs.

 

[Doug_G]

I think it's interesting that he said "free long distance travel". I wonder if this means that they will limit free charging for vehicles local to the supercharger? (Probably not a bad thing - people should charge in their garage if they can.)

 

[Zaxxon]

I think it's interesting that he said "free long distance travel". I wonder if this means that they will limit free charging for vehicles local to the supercharger? (Probably not a bad thing - people should charge in their garage if they can.)

Yeah, I can see this becoming an issue if/when there are hundreds of thousands of Teslas out there. Someone else floated the idea of limiting access to a set # of times per set period (eg 2x/month or something) within 100 miles of home. Something like that seems like it'd help prevent leecher overcrowding while still allowing the occasional local Supercharge if needed for some oddball reason.

 

[jeff_adams]

Have to disagree here. There is hardware in the car and it is pretty expensive. It's called a high voltage junction box. Think of 2 very big relays that can route 400A to different circuits. Or, in case of EU charge port with 4 power carrying poles, they probably need 4 relays.
When asked why the Roadster can't use superchargers, Elon answered "because it lacks a high voltage junction box". Consistent answer yesterday in Munich, if Mercedes B-Class e-cell would be capable of supercharging: "It has no high voltage junction box but that was Daimler's decision." Toyota RAV4 EV supercharging? Nope. Guess why.

I would be willing to bet every Model S (even the 40s) come with a built-in high voltage junction box. So all the 2k gets you is access to supercharging on Tesla's end.

 

[VolkerP]

I would be willing to bet every Model S (even the 40s) come with a built-in high voltage junction box. So all the 2k gets you is access to supercharging on Tesla's end.

You won't find anyone to bet against you on this one, since Tesla disclosed this fact in a company press release:
Tesla Model S Sales Exceed Target | Press Releases | Tesla Motors

 

[JRP3]

View attachment 42269
FWIW, here is the charging information taken from the emergency response manual. You can see the twin chargers positioned between the High Voltage Junction Box. My guess is this serves multiple purposes. taking the DC converted power from the twin chargers, taking the power from the regenerative breaking, and lastly taking the direct DC input from the supercharger.

I am sure it ultimately came down to a cost benefit to just stick it in all the cars, since it serves more use than JUST supercharger access. It is a combined system. I wouldn't expect replacement of that entire part to be cheap (heck, a single charger is like 1200, so I would guess that part would run you around the same cost at least). Now how much of that part is dedicated and designed for the superchargers? How much cheaper would it have been for them to ditch that functionality? It is hard to guess because it is a combined system.

I'd expect the high voltage junction box is a set of contactors or some other high power switching device that connects the pack to the inverter, supercharger, or on board charger as necessary. I don't understand why they specified that it routes excess regen to the battery since I'm fairly sure regen is controlled by the motor inverter and only goes to the battery after passing through the inverter. Yes it has to pass through the junction box, but so does power flowing from the pack to the motor. You don't need a separate set of cables between the pack and inverter for regen and power. They may have worded it to be purposely confusing. My guess is that when the charge cable is plugged in the car gets a signal to either close the contactor connecting the on board charger when plugged into AC power or it gets a signal to close the contactor connecting directly to the pack when plugged into DC power. When you get in the car to drive the contactor between the pack and inverter is closed to allow power flow in and out of the pack. So inside the high voltage junction box there could be three or more contactors, none of them should be switching under load so they only need to be able to pass the power through them, and disconnect once under load in a failure/emergency situation.

 

[John Luciano]

Again I have a question. When you buy a used S is the SC charge transferred to the new owner?
If u purchase a 60 how do u know if it has SC included.

 

[RobStark]

Again I have a question. When you buy a used S is the SC charge transferred to the new owner?
If u purchase a 60 how do u know if it has SC included.

1) Yes. It has infinite transferability. 2nd owner or 20th owner gets SC access if the car is SC enabled 2) Call Tesla with the VIN to confirm what the current owner says or Test drive to nearest supercharger and charge.
3) You can buy SC access for a used Model S for $2500

 

[chickensevil]

1) Yes. It has infinite transferability. 2nd owner or 20th owner gets SC access if the car is SC enabled 2) Call Tesla with the VIN to confirm what the current owner says or Test drive to nearest supercharger and charge.
3) You can buy SC access for a used Model S for $2500

Pretty much this. They have calculated in the cost of this into the price of the vehicle. They are taking other steps to ensure that it remains a positive revenue gain for the company.

 

[Panu]

I think it's interesting that he said "free long distance travel". I wonder if this means that they will limit free charging for vehicles local to the supercharger? (Probably not a bad thing - people should charge in their garage if they can.)

Now it says this also in the specs:

"Free long distance travel using Tesla’s Supercharger Network"

The web archive shows that on March-30 it was:

"Supercharging ready; included when equipped with the 85 kWh battery"

Looks like they are getting ready to limiting local supercharging.