Elon Musk on The Joe Rogan Experience

[The Blue Owl]

Now come on, do you really believe any intelligent person would listen to ads or even take them seriously? Everyone knows ads are BS and simply exist to lure you to buy stuff you don't need.
Do you base a decision as important as buying a certain car (which after all to most people tends to be the second most expensive purchase in their lives other than a house!) on ads? Really? I've never heard of anyone who would be that gullible. Perhaps when it comes to what kind of detergent to buy, or what kind of cereal, but a car???

You are intentionally misreading my post. It's not just about lying to consumers in the ads. It's about the lie they sold to authorities worldwide, which enabled them to sell a product that was not legally sellable otherwise.

Are Americans/Canadians like that? Certainly not the ones I had the pleasure to meet and get to know better.

Yeah, we Canadians are really gullible. We believe in this ridiculous idea that when a car maker proudly and unequivocally proclaims their famed engineers came up with superior engines that are good for the environment, they don't mean that they went to extreme lengths
to deceive everyone in order to sell smog-spewing crap.

This naiveté is actually why we, Canadians, are so famous for the saying Ein Mann, ein Wort.

 

[AustinPowers]

Tesla is of course the exception to the rule. Seriously you think the entire advertising industry exists because it doesn't work? Just because it doesn't work on you, (or me for that matter), doesn't change the obvious reality that it does in fact work.

You see, between you an me, if advertisers asked us, they would already garner a 0% success rate.

And it's not just you and me. Everyone, and I mean everyone I know hates ads, switches channels when commercial brakes start, uses ad-blockers when browsing or skips ads before YouTube videos at the earliest opportunity. People in general seem to be completely fed up by the constant annoyance that is ads and commercials.

Of course I am not stupid enough to believe that no one is influenced by ads. Of course a lot of people still are, but it tends to be those on the lower end of the intellectual ladder, because they are the ones most susceptible to the methods advertisers use (and/or probably even to lazy to reach for their remote / hit the "skip ad" button when they have the chance). Funnily enough, those who still watch ads are usually not the ones advertisers are primarily interested in, which is people with enough disposable income to buy all the cr*p advertisers want to sell.

 

[AustinPowers]

AFAIK the Swedish cars are a bit more upmarket and aren't competing against VW's low end, and the Czech and Spanish cars don't count, they're Volkswagens!

VW over here would disagree about being less "upmarket" than Volvo, especially on the higher end of their range (i.e. Golf R, GTI, Passat, Arteon, Touareg).
And you are right, I should have left out Spanish and Czech makes as they indeed belong to VAG.

AFAIK the Korean carmakers are making huge strides, though, in the European markets.

Indeed they are, as I mentioned in previous posts, because they offer better quality than the Japanese at even lower prices.

The problem with Japanese cars over here is, they were renowned for their reliabilty and great value for money, but in recent years they have become almost as expensive as the Germans while the reliabilty has gradually declined, whereas the Koreans now manage to provide what the Japanese used to.
It seems to be different in the US. Just look at models like the Camry, which in the US is one of the biggest sellers, but in Europe sales had declined for years until Toyota decided to pull the plug and stop selling it altogether. There's not even a comparable successor. Same with the Honda Accord by the way. At the same time other former contenders in that class of vehicle continue to sell very well.

It might be due to cultural differences when it comes to cars. Americans on the whole seem to prefer huge vehicles (even though they wouldn't think of them as huge), whereas the rest of the World seems to care more for compact vehicles. Even the trend towards "SUVs" doesn't change that fact, because a lot of what we call SUVs, Americans probably would call "Minivans".

 

[bhtooefr]

In the US, we have larger displacement, more relaxed engines (because we never had displacement taxation, our fuel economy test regimes didn't reward undersized engines, and our market is also less sensitive to fuel economy), and that helps a lot with reliability...

 

[SW2Fiddler]

I stand by my position. Ads are a complete waste of resources. The only reason why companies spend those billions on ads is that they are led to believe their advertising works by companies who profit from doing so. Vicious cycle really.

Only reason? I think much of the reason for Ad $$$ is that it is a very effective, vicious Protection Racket.
"Nice car company you have here. Be a shame if some negative sentiment were to happen to it. Oh, we have a special on the full-page full-color this week..."

 

[SW2Fiddler]

Taking drugs is nothing to make fun of! I lost a friend to drugs.
Drugs, no matter how "acceptable" they might seem to some, should never be trivialized!!!

Lumping herbs like cannabis with chemicals like meth, is some fracked-up, lazy, mental sugar. Wrong in a medical sense, dangerously damaging message in a socio sense. Our missed friends deserve better than oversimplifications and untruths.
Oh yeah but Preachy Abstinence Messaging works, said no casual observer of, say, famous mom Bristol Palin (not an political advice).

I'm out.

I guess that's super secret agent code for something other than what one would think it means. I'm out too, same time here tomorrow then?

 

[AustinPowers]

Lumping herbs like cannabis with chemicals like meth, is some fracked-up, lazy, mental sugar. Wrong in a medical sense, dangerously damaging message in a socio sense. Our missed friends deserve better than oversimplifications and untruths.
Oh yeah but Preachy Abstinence Messaging works, said no casual observer of, say, famous mom Bristol Palin (not an political advice).


I guess that's super secret agent code for something other than what one would think it means. I'm out too, same time here tomorrow then?

???

 

[Esme Es Mejor]

Taking drugs is nothing to make fun of! I lost a friend to drugs.
Drugs, no matter how "acceptable" they might seem to some, should never be trivialized!!!

I'm out.

No one ever died of marijuana. I’m not a fan of it myself, as I’ve seen friends become less interesting after years of regular use, but even that is a pretty mild downside.

 

[RABaby]

No one ever died of marijuana. I’m not a fan of it myself, as I’ve seen friends become less interesting after years of regular use, but even that is a pretty mild downside.

There is always this story of massive marijuana deaths:

Marijuana Overdoses Kill 37 in Colorado On First Day of Legalization - The Daily Currant

take note of the website

 

[MarcusMaximus]

No one ever died of marijuana. I’m not a fan of it myself, as I’ve seen friends become less interesting after years of regular use, but even that is a pretty mild downside.

Not directly, though I'm sure some have due to driving while intoxicated on the stuff. Of course, far more do the same on alcohol, but nobody seemed to really care much about the whiskey in Musk's hand.

 

[Mr X]

Are we still talking about this?

 

[Lasairfion]

I remember this article from when it happened:
"Marketing is dead" says Saatchi & Saatchi CEO | The Drum

"Management is dead. To win today you need a culture and an environment where the unreasonable power of creativity thrives. Ideas are today’s currency not strategy. Martin Luther King did not say ‘I have a vision statement’ did he? He had a dream. You have to make sure you have dreams and your brand also needs a dream....

Business leaders need to become creative leaders. We need to change the language of business. Who wants to be a Chief Executive Officer? It sounds like you work for the government and who would want that? Being a Chief Excitement Officer would be better, don’t you think? The role of a good CEO is to get people to buy into their dreams and their company’s dreams."

----

I would also like to point out to those arguing that VW are a paragon of manufacturing, that their cars are sold mainly on their supposedly solid reliability and longevity.

This does not explain how on earth VW managed a design fault in the VW Passat 3B and Skoda Superb Mk1 that pretty much guarantees that your car interior will flood after a few years and erode away all the electrical connections for your lighting and comfort module parts. An issue that affects all of them unless you live in a desert and was never fixed until the next version of the car. One that they knew about because they brought out a new pollen filter seal to replace the original part, but it still didn't work. And which issue is stickied to the very top of the Skoda and Passat owners' forums as the first thing to check if your doors don't unlock, if you have electrical issues, if you have lighting issues, if you have audio issues, if you have seat heater issues. etc etc.

And I didn't even mention why all the Octavia Mk 2s tended to need an aircon replacement or a new turbo (both on 2 different cars so far). Or why the soft touch plastics on the doors never last (noticed this on the Audi A4 too). These issues are from personal experience and which on taking to my local garage have always been met with a 'oh yes, this always happens on these'.

 

[Electroman]

Quite.
And that is exactly what I meant with what I see as the main problem. "Normal" people are not going to put up with such a situation.
Right now, Tesla still has the backlog of pre-orders to fulfill, but after that, they need positive word of mouth to keep selling cars. Experiences like the one you describe are certainly not going to produce positive word of mouth recommendations.

What do all those who disagree with me think will happen once even more competitors are on the scene. Yes, all of them are late to the party, but do you think that's not for a reason? Say what you like about legacy automakers, especially about "cheating and murderous" VW. But one thing is for sure, they would never rush cars to market with shoddy quality control, simply because they promised to prospective customers something and then couldn't deliver. I mean, what is the main reason for the shoddy quality control? It's the desperate need to rush out as many cars to (at least US/Canada) customers as possible, in order not to lose all credibility and to get at least mildly profitable before it's too late.

Oh and just for the record, for all of those that say that Elon's recent "blunders" don't affect sales: over here Model S and X sales have slumped for months, with August being a new record low sadly. And when I see how the excitement for the Model 3 I managed to induce in friends and colleagues has started to wane over the recent events and all the reports about quality problems galore, I am deeply saddened that all my efforts to support Tesla's mission might have been for nothing. There's only so much explaining away/excusing/extenuating one can do, after a while and ever more bad news, no is going to listen anymore.

If what I am driving now is considered shoddy quality, then I am sure those legacy ICE makers should be quaking in their boots when Tesla get their quality a notch higher next year.

I saw 5 Model 3s in my office lot earlier this week Vins ranging from 13k to 70k and spoke to the owners too. Everything was perfect. Three of them were driving German sedans before this Tesla.

Internet forums tends to attract those that see issues and people like you tend to amplify it by giving a ‘Sky is falling’ color to it.

 

[AustinPowers]

If what I am driving now is considered shoddy quality, then I am sure those legacy ICE makers should be quaking in their boots when Tesla get their quality a notch higher next year.

I saw 5 Model 3s in my office lot earlier this week Vins ranging from 13k to 70k and spoke to the owners too. Everything was perfect. Three of them were driving German sedans before this Tesla.

Internet forums tends to attract those that see issues and people like you tend to amplify it by giving a ‘Sky is falling’ color to it.

Well, over here Tesla sells less cars every month. We're almost down to single digits if the trend continues.
And the owners I know who currently drive an S or X are not very happy with their cars overall. The general consensus is they will buy a BEV by a legacy automaker once they become available, because, I quote "they know how to build quality cars that don't need to go to a service center five times a year before becoming even half acceptable".

The sky might not be falling anytime soon, but outside the US (where Tesla seems to be seen through a patriotic pair of glasses), it is certainly not bright anymore, with more dark clouds on the horizon.

By the way, none of the owners I mentioned frequent Tesla or other car forums.

 

[mspohr]

Well, over here Tesla sells less cars every month. We're almost down to single digits if the trend continues.
And the owners I know who currently drive an S or X are not very happy with their cars overall. The general consensus is they will buy a BEV by a legacy automaker once they become available, because, I quote "they know how to build quality cars that don't need to go to a service center five times a year before becoming even half acceptable".

The sky might not be falling anytime soon, but outside the US (where Tesla seems to be seen through a patriotic pair of glasses), it is certainly not bright anymore, with more dark clouds on the horizon.

By the way, none of the owners I mentioned frequent Tesla or other car forums.

Your anecdotal experience is really irrelevant. If you look at actual sales figures, Tesla S outsells Mercedes S, BMW 7, Audi A8, etc. Best selling luxury sedan in Germany.
January to July 2018 Tesla had the largest gain in European cars sales and Mercedes had the largest drop in European car sales.
European car sales analysis July 2018 – brands - carsalesbase.com
Facts!

 

[AustinPowers]

If what I am driving now is considered shoddy quality, then I am sure those legacy ICE makers should be quaking in their boots when Tesla get their quality a notch higher next year.

They haven't managed to get their quality control up to par to a consistent level on the Model S, nor has their communication improved noticeably over the last six years. What makes you think they will manage to do so in another year?

 

[Electroman]

"they know how to build quality cars that don't need to go to a service center five times a year before becoming even half acceptable".

Hmm.. I don't know where my Tesla service center is, I need to find out.

where Tesla seems to be seen through a patriotic pair of glasses

Pot calling the kettle, black? Any American manufacturer is going to find it very hard to sell to Germans who are so proud of their engineering prowess (rightly so) and their well established auto industry. But over here, BMWs and Mercedes are known for very high repair rates and costs. That is why after warranty the resale value falls like a rock.

Only the Japanese have the right to call out anyone on quality.

 

[AustinPowers]

Your anecdotal experience is really irrelevant. If you look at actual sales figures, Tesla S outsells Mercedes S, BMW 7, Audi A8, etc. Best selling luxury sedan in Germany.
January to July 2018 Tesla had the largest gain in European cars sales and Mercedes had the largest drop in European car sales.
European car sales analysis July 2018 – brands - carsalesbase.com
Facts!

Yes, other than the fact that your link doesn't support your theory. Tesla sales appear to be at rounding error levels. Admittedly, so are sales of the top of the line luxury models you mentioned, but sales of those have always been minute, plus those cars are a different category than a Model S anyway. Only the price is comparable.

 

[AustinPowers]

But over here, BMWs and Mercedes are known for very high repair rates and costs. That is why after warranty the resale value falls like a rock.

Only the Japanese have the right to call out anyone on quality.

Strange. Why do the Japanese sell unreliable cars over here when they know how to produce reliable ones in the US?
And why is it the exact opposite with the German manufacturers here? By the way, warranty period (if the manufacturer offers one at all) over here tends to only be one or two years anyway, so where's the problem? The only warranty periods worth mentioning are those by the Korean manufacturers, not the Japanese. Then again, if the cars are reliable, who needs a warranty?

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

Only the Japanese have the right to call out anyone on quality.

Im starting to think I would rather own a Tesla out of warranty than a Toyota. Toyota’s are pretty bullet proof and don’t strand you, but they need expensive service items (compared to a Tesla) and their suspensions need a lot of parts replaced after 100,000 miles.