Estimating M3 PxxDL performance (MS math)

[Chewy3]

So, since I have some spare time I spent a few minutes plugging model S battery/motor numbers vs their 0-60ph times. Then taking that data and throwing it at the info we have on the Model 3. Obviously it is very unreliable being based on rumors, estimates, and guesses. But none the less, I was bored and maybe someone else will extract something more useful from it.

Model S
60 kWh

5.5s (same as 75, same HW, SW limited)​

60D kWh

5.2s
94.5% (5.2 / 5.5) (same as 75D, same HW, SW limited)​

75 kWh

5.5s ​

75D kWh

5.2s
94.50%​

90D kWh

4.2s
76.40% vs 60 kWh single motor (same as 100D, same HW, SW limited)​

100D kWh

4.2s ​

P100DL kWh

2.5s
45.45% vs 60 kWh single motor
59.50% vs 100D​

MODEL 3

55 kWh (estimated, also any other models with SW limited battery will have same performance)

5.9s (stated to be 'under 6 seconds'. Calculating conservatively)​

55D kWh

5.57s (5.9 * .945) ​

75D kWh (rough estimate. 100kWh / 75 kWh * 55 kWh = 73.333kWh)

4.5s (5.9 * .764) Probably unlikely since the Model s with a 75D does 0-60 in 5.2s

5.0s (unmathmatical estimate, ligher vehicle than model S with same battery & motors, maybe ~0.2s improvement)​

P75DL kWh

2.68s (5.9s * .4545) Highly unlikely

2.98s (5.0s estimate for 75D * .595 [difference between MS 100d and P100DL])​

​

​

 

[JeffK]

If the "2170"s are capable of higher discharge rates then all bets are off... or if they finally decided to add capacitors.

 

[Chewy3]

If the "2170"s are capable of higher discharge rates then all bets are off... or if they finally decided to add capacitors.

Adding capacitors would be expensive but amazing for performance - Even just a small hybrid system would greatly improve launches.

If/when they convert the entire power bank to capacitors ($$$$$) The charge times will be incredible - likely faster than gas.

 

[JeffK]

Adding capacitors would be expensive but amazing for performance - Even just a small hybrid system would greatly improve launches.

If/when they convert the entire power bank to capacitors ($$$$$) The charge times will be incredible - likely faster than gas.

I'm only suggesting enough for a launch or enough for 1/4 mile performance. There's no need to add more beyond this at the moment.

 

[Red Sage]

It's rather simple really. Whatever the C63, M3, S4, ATS-V, or Quadrifoglio are capable of, make the Model 3 at least 1.0 second quicker. That should do the trick.

 

[brianman]

Adding capacitors would be expensive but amazing for performance - Even just a small hybrid system would greatly improve launches.

Probably worthy of a separate thread, but I wonder if anybody has done the math yet for how much energy is needed for 0-60 in 2s flat for a Model S (aero and weight) profile. Given that data, I'm curious how much capacitors holding that much energy would cost.

@wk057, @fiksegts

 

[Chewy3]

Probably worthy of a separate thread, but I wonder if anybody has done the math yet for how much energy is needed for 0-60 in 2s flat for a Model S (aero and weight) profile. Given that data, I'm curious how much capacitors holding that much energy would cost.

@wk057, @fiksegts

The quick and dirty estimate from 0-60 mph Calculator for Cars
assuming the weight is 3600lbs, dual motor (AWD), not calculating for the fact it's an electric with instant torque (I'm fairly certain this calculator is designed for ICE cars)

750kW or 1000HP to do 0-60mph in ~2.0 seconds

 

[JeffK]

The quick and dirty estimate from 0-60 mph Calculator for Cars
assuming the weight is 3600lbs, dual motor (AWD), not calculating for the fact it's an electric with instant torque (I'm fairly certain this calculator is designed for ICE cars)

750kW or 1000HP to do 0-60mph in ~2.0 seconds

But that's a measure of power and not a measure of energy

 

[Chewy3]

But that's a measure of power and not a measure of energy

Very true. Let's do some math

750kW = 750,000 Joules per second.
2 seconds 0-60 = (2s * 750,000J/s) = 1500 kJ

OR

750kW * (1hour /3600 seconds) * 2 seconds = 0.416kWh

 

[garsh]

Given that data, I'm curious how much capacitors holding that much energy would cost.

You don't want capacitors unless you're a drag-race junky. Let's put things in perspective.

Take a Model S and replace its battery pack with a similarly-sized (physically) supercapacitor. Now instead of waiting at a supercharger for 20 minutes to get an 80% charge, you can recharge it from empty to 100% in about 2 seconds! Awesome! The downside, however, is that instead of a 100kWh pack with 300-mile range, you'd end up with a 5kWh pack with 15-mile range. Yep, they tend to be big for the energy stored.

Tesla's cost for a 100 kWh pack is about $19,000. That 5kWh supercapacitor would cost roughly the same, probably a little more.

Here's a decent overview article comparing batteries & capacitors.
What’s the Difference Between Batteries and Capacitors?

 

[eisbock]

P75DL kWh

2.68s (5.9s * .4545) Highly unlikely

2.98s (5.0s estimate for 75D * .595 [difference between MS 100d and P100DL])​

I've been saying this all along, but I think it's pretty darn likely that a maxed out Model 3 will do 0-60 in 3 seconds. Makes great marketing sense and doesn't out perform the Model S (or X).

I'm sure "easter eggs" or pack improvements will increase that to sub 3 second territory in the future though once the novelty of 3 this 3 that 3 everything wears off.

 

[JeffK]

I've been saying this all along, but I think it's pretty darn likely that a maxed out Model 3 will do 0-60 in 3 seconds. Makes great marketing sense and doesn't out perform the Model S (or X).

I'm sure "easter eggs" or pack improvements will increase that to sub 3 second territory in the future though once the novelty of 3 this 3 that 3 everything wears off.

Let me ask a question... Does anyone remember Elon's post about 350kW being a Children's toy? Elon Musk on Twitter

Now, he could be referring to future charging for Tesla Semi trucks, but if he was talking about cars, what is going to enable charging at such a high C rate. If it can charge at a much higher C rate than normal, can it also discharge at a higher C rate and still be safe? If so, this would mean that smaller packs would be able to deliver high performance without battery degradation.

 

[brianman]

You don't want capacitors unless you're Elon and you're perpetually chasing a lower 0-60 time. Let's put things in perspective.

It seems you were missing where I was going with this, so I've adjusted your quote to help you get there.

 

[Red Sage]

I'm certain that the power electronics and inverter systems that Tesla uses include capacitors. Elon Musk was doing research toward a PhD regarding Supercapacitors. He is a very smart man and was certain they were the path forward to electric vehicles. It was JB Straubel that convinced Elon otherwise. It isn't likely Tesla will switch to an extra large capacitor based system instead of battery cells as long as JB is there as CTO.