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Faster than light neutrinos.

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by TEG, Sep 26, 2011.

  1. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  2. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

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    Tesla's comment here is taken slightly out of context here. I read and have not verified that he was speaking about Cosmic Rays, and that is what 'they' refers to in this quote.
     
  3. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    And I'll bet that the neutrino measurement doesn't hold up.

    neutrinos.png
     

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  4. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Definitely a story that has gone 'viral' recently.
     
  5. rolosrevenge

    rolosrevenge Dr. EVS

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    But the scientists themselves released the data not to conclude that the Neutrinos (and not the TMNT ones :tongue: ) were moving faster than light, but for the community to help them find what they were doing wrong to account for the discrepancy in the data. The authors do not believe that the Neutrinos are really going that fast.
     
  6. bobw

    bobw Tesla Reader

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    Fermilab reported a similar result some time ago. They didn't believe it either. If it isn't an experimental artifact, it's huge. They show real class in putting out their data for all and sundry to see and critique.
     
  7. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    I was just about to post this!
     
  8. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    I watched the presentation at CERN. In the Q&A section right after the presentation, they tried to disprove it right there, even though a large team had been re-checking and testing their results for 6 months, including by other groups. I'm thinking that in 5 years, they still won't have a satisfying explanation inside of relativity.
     
  9. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    Yeah, but Supernova SN1987A afforded the ability to measure the speed of neutrinos, and the results that came back were consistent with the speed of light. And that is over much larger distances than this experiment.
     
  10. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    That was mentioned in both the presentation and the Q&A. One difference is that those neutrinos are of much lower energy. Also, I speculate, they might have been missed when they arrived earlier (that time perhaps being miscalculated because the equations used didn't apply).

    Whereas the results by MINOS in 2007, in the US, where of similar nature, though of much lower statistical significance (they'll now be repeated with more precise timing in a few months). These results hadn't been taken as seriously because of the much lower sigma, but otherwise they do confirm the results at CERN.
     
  11. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    Not likely, because the neutrino detectors are constantly monitored and they weren't expecting the burst of neutrinos. They typically detected one or two a day. So they didn't know not to look early, and surely they caught all of them.

    The energy level could obviously have an effect, but photons travel at the speed of light and have different energy levels. A shorter wavelength photon has more momentum, but no mass.

    Well if this is true, it certainly is "new physics". It would be the first ever violation of special relativity.
     
  12. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    Perhaps, I was just speculating (as I said), but do we know as a fact that there wasn't any separate burst, perhaps attributed to a separate event? If the formulas where wrong, who knows if they didn't perhaps arrive 50 years earlier? Again, just speculating.

    Neutrinos have a small but non-zero mass, so again, a difference.

    Of course, photons usually travel at the speed of light. ;)

    Unless there are additional dimensions allowing a short cut, or something like that. But Quantum Physics did already more or less prove several effects which Einstein considered more or less impossible.
     
  13. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

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    So a verification of their experiment............. Continue to monitor Nutrinos from the cosmos. If a burst of nutrinos is detected without accompanying photons then their experiment would be upheld. To date this has not happened, thus I am skeptical!!
     
  14. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    As far as I understand, MINOS might be able to reproduce the experiment in a few months, and that would be considered a verification. However, given the significant implications, probably there isn't any single verification which would satisfy everyone.
     
  15. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    SN1987A was a truly unique event; the only supernova to have gone off in the Milky Way or one of its satellite galaxies since the invention of the telescope (it was in the LMC, which a satellite galaxy). Supernovas in other galaxies are too distant for the neutrino flux to be detectable.

    Yes, which forces them to travel very slightly slower than the speed of light. The reason for trying to accurately measure the speed was to determine that mass. The result of faster-than-light was completely unexpected and very possibly anomalous.

    Not really; the two theories really talk about completely different things. The effects of Quantum Mechanics and Relativity rarely cross paths, and when they do the theories aren't at all compatible mathematically, so there's no way to perform a calculation. They can do various approximations, which generally work okay, but even though that works well it's all a bit kludgey. Thus the hunt for a unified theory encompassing both.
     
  16. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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    implications are significant for relativistic theory. They might shatter the foundations of current physics, like the X rays did around 1900.
    I dare to suggest that any practical application in daily life is years away.
    The neutrino is such an evasive particle, finding out it can travel faster than light is like telling some bushmen (=us) the difference between 3G and 4G while they beat their drums...
     
  17. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    A supernova could happen on the far side of the Milky Way's bulge, and we wouldn't be able to see it due to extinction from the dust clouds in the plane of the galaxy. The only way we'd know it was there would be from the neutrino pulse.
     
  18. Nik

    Nik Dreaming no more :-(

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  19. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    It is in the 'off topic' section.

    What got me to post it here was partly all the people quoting Nikola Tesla saying he predicted this...

    Plus the rampant variants of the "punchline first" jokes flooding social networks.
     
  20. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    #20 Norbert, Sep 28, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2011
    Still, I don't know when they started "monitoring", but if the neutrinos arrived before that time, then nobody would know.



    According to current theory.


    In this case, I'm wasn't talking about the theory of relativity itself, but about what Einstein thought about Quantum Physics. While Quantum Physics hasn't been shown to contradict relativity (yet), it is still unlike what Einstein, as a person, thought it would be, quantum entanglement being one example, leading to the so-called EPR paper which he co-authored.

    Quantum entanglement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Meaning, even the perhaps best physicist of all times could be wrong. That's science, get used to it. ;)

     

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