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Fisker Karma spied doing "durability testing"
- Thread starter doug
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Did you catch this part also?
"Fisker Automotive has so far received more than 500 orders for the Karma since its 2008 debut at the North American International Auto Show (NAIAS) in January."
Sounds like Fisker is at least a serious competitor for Whitestar and perhaps even the Volt.
Yeah I did, and I think you're right, assuming they can get their act together and also get these law suits behind them. Not so sure about the Volt, but they are certainly sweeping up impatient potential Whitestar customers. Karma and Whitestar really seem to be in the same space, unless Tesla is able to make a great pure EV version.
Fisker's approach may turn out to be smarter than Tesla's. They're also starting out on the high end, but with a car that has a wider potential market. No idea if they can pull it off, though. Would be nice if both companies could be successful.
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I don't know much about patent infringement lawsuits, but I know litigation. I read somewhere this was going to be sent to arbitration which means the arbitrator would make determinations which are binding. Only then could it be appealed to court. Tesla filed in court initially, which may have breached Fisker's original contract assuming there was an arbitration clause. In either case, I agree... I'd like to see the suits go away quickly in the interest of the industry.
I think Whitestar is realistically some years off, and certainly not within the 2010 timeframe Elon keeps promising. When I talked with one highly-placed (and now-fired) Tesla employee at last December's L.A. auto show, I came away with the impression that 2011 was the earliest we'd see it, and even that was optimistic. Also, during my trip to the Tesla showroom this past weekend, I heard similar rumblings from employees. From what I understand, the basic design isn't even finished yet, much less all the intricacies that go into the final product. 2010 is not that far away. Even the majors might find an 18-24 month product delivery schedule tight.
If the Roadster ends up having a bunch of problems -- as small as fit and finish problems -- Whitestar will have to be delayed further, giving more time for Fisker and others to occupy the space. Too, Roadster problems will tarnish the TM brand, which may well affect the desirability of Whitestar. Car buyers are largely a conservative lot, buying what they know time after time, unless some other option is so compelling to make them switch. It doesn't take much to scare off someone from buying a new brand.
The fact that Fisker is doing crash-test simulations not actual crash-tests tells me that they might very well have a lot of work still left to do. They are using an unknown battery tech that will get a lot more cycles then Tesla as they are a REEV and they claim a battery life of 10 years. I'd really like to know what kind of chemistry those batteries are using? If Fisker has a working prototype WITH a working driveline why send out PR buzz pictures instead of showing journalists how far they've come. After all looking at their competitors both Volt and Whitestar that seems to be the way they do it...
I can't see how Roadster problems with fit and finish would delay the Whitestar? They should have enough resources now to keep those running in paralell. My guess is that the Karma will be about 6 months earlier than the Whitestar. But I guess within 45 days we should know as that's the timeline Tesla has given for Whitestar info.
Cobos
Cobos,
You asked:
"I'd really like to know what kind of chemistry those batteries are using?"
It sounds to me like one of the following:
All the best,
Chris H.
You asked:
"I'd really like to know what kind of chemistry those batteries are using?"
It sounds to me like one of the following:
- lithium iron-phosphate
- lithium vanadium oxide
- lithium manganese
All the best,
Chris H.
I'm sure Tesla also did a ton of simulations too before actual crash tests. Crash testing is really expensive, while the simulations have become highly accurate. However you still need to do the actual crash tests to prove you meet regulations. Fisker will want to work out all the other details first. Crash testing is one of the last things you want to do. However, throughout the process, you want to do simulations to maintain a high confidence that your design is safe.
Which answers my question, noone actually knows. I seem to recall they've said their batteries are completely safe which should rule out the standard LiCoO2 cell chemistry that Tesla uses, but apart from that noone has claimed to have the Quantum batterycontract. So their high power density pack, that will take a lot more cycles than Teslas 500 should last 10 years. Sure, I'd still like to see it though.
Quantum also only seems to be doing driveline manufacturing not the chassis. Since everyone comments how Tesla can't launch the Whitestar in 2010 without a factory how can Fisker do that in Q3 2009 cheaply without a factory?
All these leads me to beleive anyone putting down a deposit on a Karma will be disappointed with the delivery date. No reason to beleive the car will be bad though. It just might be that I'm skeptical since looking at Fiskers website is heavy on the fluff and VERY low on actual details. The early details f. inst. said stealth mode (EV only) doesn't offer full power of the car, and then what's the point of it's green credentials?
Cobos
Don't get me wrong, I of course understand the need for crash test simulations at every stage of development. The point I was trying to make and you explained nicely above is that they are not at the stage they are doing real crash tests, hence lots of stuff can still fail in the simulations. I just get the feeling Tesla is getting lots of negativity for saying hi to Murphy while everyone believes Fisker somehow will not have to deal with him...
Cobos
You've got that right!
Tesla says that can't switch from a single-DIN to a double-DIN radio because they would have to re-do crash testing.
I suppose problems wouldn't delay Whitestar if TM had enough resources to dedicate to both projects. From what I heard at the store, however, there are some parts of the Roadster that the engineers still haven't settled on -- like where to put the cooling fans, whether up front or in back. It's late in the day for these kinds of decisions to be still unresolved, and their solutions demand time. Plus, if there end up being many owner complaints about this-or-that niggling issue, TM will probably have to allocate people to taking care of them.
I'm actually a bit eager to hear unvarnished Roadster owner reports. We have so little info about what it means to drive the car daily, and how the car compares to other vehicles in the space. I believe Elon hopes to compete with Porsche, at least on a performance basis. It'd be great if he also thought about competing with Porsche on a feature and comfort basis.
Ok, I get ya. That, and they only have 3 cars at the moment.Don't get me wrong, I of course understand the need for crash test simulations at every stage of development. The point I was trying to make and you explained nicely above is that they are not at the stage they are doing real crash tests, hence lots of stuff can still fail in the simulations. I just get the feeling Tesla is getting lots of negativity for saying hi to Murphy while everyone believes Fisker somehow will not have to deal with him...
Cobos
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