I have to agree. Tony is going about it as the CEO if some big dinosaur company would. Fisker needs to run lean like a startup.
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Fisker Karma
- Thread starter vfx
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- Electric Vehicles fail Fisker karma
I have to agree. Tony is going about it as the CEO if some big dinosaur company would. Fisker needs to run lean like a startup.
Matthew049
Member
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
Final nail in the Fisker coffin. Though it's interesting that those companies didn't already know that Fisker had none of their own technology. Anyone here could have told them that. Oh well, there goes $1 billion in VC and government money. Though from Henrik Fisker's standpoint, it was a complete success, he got his name on a car and can now be immortalized in annals of automotive history. Ego appeased.
Another interesting tidbit is about the fuel cells:
Another interesting tidbit is about the fuel cells:
ouch, but I can't help feel a bit vindicated in my beliefs that fisker brought nothing to the table except a pretty design with tech cobbled together from other companies. Shame, would've liked a nice PHEV
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
People over at Fisker Buzz are disputing this. It seems Fisker started by using Quantum Technology but moved the IP in-house in late 2011/early 2012 when they parted ways.
A search of patents show they do have plenty (ignoring design patents, there are still a couple of useful PHEV related patents), so it's not like they don't have IP (as the article makes it sound).
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/re...uery_txt=fisker+automotive&submit=&patents=on
Whether that IP is deemed useful is another matter.
Matthew049
Member
my thoughts too. green people are a different bunch. they're more interested in being green than style. fisker never understood that. his car is all style.
"Geely wanted to wait until Fisker declared bankruptcy so it could get a good deal on the company, say sources"
hahahahahaha!!!!!
dennis
Model S Plaid
Having put 9000 miles on my Karma and 3000 on my Model S I have to disagree that Fisker's car is all style:
1) The Karma handles better than the Model S. The Karma handles like a BMW, the Model S like a Lexus (I've owned all 4 brands)
2) The regen on the Karma (both pedals, 90kw max) is better than the Model S
3) The battery/motor-generator PHEV drivetrain and the regen/friction braking operate 100% seamlessly
I'm not saying that the Karma is a better car than the Model S, only that Henrik's Karma is not only about style.
Fisker made a lot of blunders and marketing errors and also had bad luck. But I believe it is wrong to discount the level of engineering that went into the Karma just because it has a lot of style.
Fisker simply couldn't win this. They underestimated what it takes to bring a good car to market.
They launched the car too late and they launched it too early. Too late, because they missed the deadlines for the DOE-loan, costing them 300+ million dollars, and disappointed people who had to wait for years and years (many cancelling their reservations). And too early, because they didn't test the car thoroughly and launched it when it was absolutely not ready, with dozens of flaws. My car was one of those and after a year full of trouble I sold it.
They launched the car too late and they launched it too early. Too late, because they missed the deadlines for the DOE-loan, costing them 300+ million dollars, and disappointed people who had to wait for years and years (many cancelling their reservations). And too early, because they didn't test the car thoroughly and launched it when it was absolutely not ready, with dozens of flaws. My car was one of those and after a year full of trouble I sold it.
I've only sat in the driver's seat of a Karma for a minute so you are a much better judge to compare the two obviously but I think when people say 'all style' about the Karma, they are usually referring to the large battery tunnel down the middle leading some people to feel cramped inside and the tiny trunk.
So you had both as well? Can you make other comparisons beside the Karma problems?
We had a down payment and cancelled after too much time and finally getting to experience the too small interior and trunk (and too many price increases). Would love another perspective on duel ownership.
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Quick check show Ebay with 21 Karmas for sale, Two Model S', and seven Roadsters.
smorgasbord
Active Member
I'm still interested in hearing how Fisker is able to do a 90kW regen on a 20kWh battery. That's more than 4C!
Don't remember which specific A123 lithium phosphate cells the Karma is using, but they should be able to do on the order of 30C or so. With that C rate, I'm more surprised that they need power from the genset to get max acceleration. The engineering and component choice on the electric drive is rather disappointing given what's possible.
smorgasbord
Active Member
Let me try some math here.
90kW or regen on a 20kWh battery means you'd fully charge the battery in about 13 minutes if you had a long and steep enough downhill(
). And that's if the Karma was using the whole battery (I don't think it does).
Anyway, that's 7.7% of charge for every minute of braking, which is 0.128% of charge for every second of braking. So, if you're going really fast in your Karma and you regen brake for, say, 8 or more seconds, do you see the battery charge increase 1%?
With 90kW of regen braking available, friction braking would seem to not come on except in heavy brake pedal stomping, right?
90kW or regen on a 20kWh battery means you'd fully charge the battery in about 13 minutes if you had a long and steep enough downhill(
). And that's if the Karma was using the whole battery (I don't think it does).Anyway, that's 7.7% of charge for every minute of braking, which is 0.128% of charge for every second of braking. So, if you're going really fast in your Karma and you regen brake for, say, 8 or more seconds, do you see the battery charge increase 1%?
With 90kW of regen braking available, friction braking would seem to not come on except in heavy brake pedal stomping, right?
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Some of the points there are not going to be found without some extensive driving of the car. Most people will be looking at spec sheets first. And in terms of specs the Fisker is relatively slow, inefficient, heavy, and has less passenger and cargo room (even comparing to 2-door coupes in its class, not just the Model S). The fact they had lots of bad luck in terms of natural disasters and supplier problems made matters only worse.
Given the power specs, you would expect better. They had 20kWh worth of a123 cells which can discharge at 30C continuously (total continuous power 600kW). They had 300kW worth of motor. The car should be able to perform a lot better than it does now (even in stealth mode). And about those motors, they went with a dual motor design using 200lb motors (400lbs total). Tesla can get the same power from a single 100lb motor. And with a dual motor design they missed a great chance to do torque vectoring to improve performance.
I think people were expecting about 80MPGe electric, 25mpg gas, 50mi AER and curb weight to be ~4500lbs. EPA turned out to be 52MPGe, 20mpg gas, 32mi AER, curb weight 5400lbs, with a subcompact interior volume rating. They also raised 0-60 times by 0.4 seconds from 5.9 to 6.3 secs. When those specs came out I think that was the start of the doubt about Fisker's engineering. And the Panamera Hybrid came hot on its heels (it doesn't have any AER, but certainly it's in the same market). Certainly a lot of engineering went into this car (people are arguing whether it was in-house or third party), but not enough.
I should add though, that this could have changed with the Atlantic, as that car was developed entirely in-house AFAIK and I'm presuming they have addressed a lot of the issues with the Karma. The way things are going though, we may never find out.
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I don't own a Model S yet, production for Europe is scheduled to start in June and I'm expecting my Signature in August.
But I was very impressed during the Get Amped-test drive. The Karma felt heavy like a tank, the Model S much faster and nimbler. And I can't even begin to describe the difference between the control screens.
I had lots of problems, many of which were solved only to be replaced by new problems. In the end I gave up and sold it. Even thought I lost a lot of money on that sale I'm glad I made that call now that the company is about to go under, leaving owners behind with the prospect of finding someone who will service it and, if they do, the prospect of paying for all repairs, maintenance and parts (the ten months I had the car must have cost Fisker at least $10,000 in recalls, repairs, maintenance, excluding two battery replacements!).
dennis
Model S Plaid
Regen is used for the first .25G of deceleration and friction braking for anything above that.
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