FSD 12.3.3 Phantom braking

[RonB]

Drove my 2023 Y to Costco yesterday. Overall FSD worked quite well with the following exceptions.

Driving 45-50mph on a main road approaching stopped traffic I felt the car waited to long to apply the brakes. I had to disengage to make sure it stopped, happened several times.

Also, hard phantom braking happened on the interstate traveling at 75mph, lucky I was not rear ended.

Anyone else having these problems?

 

[BobHinden]

I had mine brake unexpectedly a few days ago on HW 880 in the SF Bay area.

 

[Waltjo]

Interesting, I have tried FSD since the trial arrived. And it was noticeable that I had had no phantom braking events. That seems to be an improvement over EAP, but the test time has been limited. I have been impressed by FSD 's ability to change lanes gracefully as needed. I have always driven EAP with "auto lane change" disabled. I like the improved visualization since the update. I hope that the new view persists for EAP once the FSD trial has ended. All in all I rate it a pretty fair improvement over the EAP that I have been used to.

I've used it a bit is city driving too. It gets me where I want to go. But it seems too fussy and it seems to get confused from time to time. And it has twice turned into a poor choice of supermarket entrances. Although this is a mapping issue. I suppose. it reflects poorly on the FSD. I would say it is over cautious and has not done anything dangerous. But the fussiness and unwarranted slowing are enough to make me not want to use it for local city driving.

I agree the parallel parking is very good, nearly as good as I enjoyed in my previous car (M3 with ultrasonic sensors). At last, the parking has returned and is useful.

I do not expect to take the option to continue FSD after the trial. I will stick with EAP. It is very useful on trips at freeway speeds. But the city driving option has little value for me,

 

[araxara]

Also, hard phantom braking happened on the interstate traveling at 75mph, lucky I was not rear ended.

I had mine brake unexpectedly a few days ago on HW 880 in the SF Bay area.

Although you may have the latest Version 12 FSD software, the software stack for the highway driving is still using the old V11 software stack.

 

[BobHinden]

Although you may have the latest Version 12 FSD software, the software stack for the highway driving is still using the old V11 software stack.

Really, I thought V12 was a uniform for all driving modes. I am confused, please provide more information.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Really, I thought V12 was a uniform for all driving modes. I am confused, please provide more information.

The highway stack is still v11.4.9 based. Only city streets is end to end AI today. At some point the highway stack may become end to end AI based as well, but that’s not the case today. This is why the “auto max” speed setting is only available off highway - that feature only exists within the AI stack - and disappears when you enter any limited access highway and re-engages when you exit the highway.

It clearly states this fact right in the release notes:

 

[araxara]

Really, I thought V12 was a uniform for all driving modes. I am confused, please provide more information.

Per the release notes:

FSD (Supervised) v12 upgrades the city-streets driving stack to a single end-to-end neural network trained on millions of video clips, replacing over 300k lines of explicit C++ code.

Notice it says it upgrades the city-streets driving stack.

 

[snibble]

Multiple instances of phantom braking in my 3 in the UK under TACC. Mainly on 70 mph dual carriageways. Possibly when passing over roads on flyover. Also where l know there used to be a 40 mph limit due to roadworks that are now complete and gone.
Any other UK drivers getting same?
I've only had it 2 months.

 

[WheresMyKeys]

Phantom braking on any form of cruise (TACC, AP, FSD) is the major achilles heel of the Tesla driving experience. In my humble opinion. And there's nothing we can do about it.

 

[cmy4x4]

Using FSD for two weeks now and find it works pretty well. Still have PB incidents, but MUCH fewer and MUCH less drastic. What bugs me is it's inability to recognize speed limit changes. The signs are clearly visible and my Waze app displays the correct speed limit, but car continues at 70 in a 55.

 

[ewoodrick]

Drove my 2023 Y to Costco yesterday. Overall FSD worked quite well with the following exceptions.

Driving 45-50mph on a main road approaching stopped traffic I felt the car waited to long to apply the brakes. I had to disengage to make sure it stopped, happened several times.

Also, hard phantom braking happened on the interstate traveling at 75mph, lucky I was not rear ended.

Anyone else having these problems?

Honda.

Feds expand investigation into Honda’s automatic emergency braking system

3 million Honda Accords and CR-Vs are fitted with Collision Mitigation Braking System.

arstechnica.com

This week, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration decided to expand an ongoing investigation into the alarming tendency of some modern Hondas to inappropriately trigger their automatic emergency braking systems. Studies have shown that automatic emergency braking systems have reduced road deaths in the US, Europe, and China, but so-called phantom braking problems have dogged systems from Tesla and Honda.

We first learned of the problem in 2022, when NHTSA opened a preliminary investigation into the matter, based on 278 complaints. Now, NHTSA's Office of Defects Investigation has received 1,294 complaints from drivers of Honda CR-Vs (model years 2017–2022) and Honda Accords (model years 2018–2022), all claiming that their Hondas' automatic emergency braking system slammed on the brakes with no apparent obstruction in the way.

 

[SadPanda]

Honda.

Feds expand investigation into Honda’s automatic emergency braking system

3 million Honda Accords and CR-Vs are fitted with Collision Mitigation Braking System.

arstechnica.com

I think as a whole it's much better with normal carmakers. While I know Nissan historically has phantom braking issues, we have a '23 leaf and it has never given me problems while my model s has done it quite often. (Leaf also handles rain and fog much better, I assume this is due to the S not using its radar anymore) I also use to drive a genesis and that thing was rock solid until the sky was pouring so much it made me think of building an ark lol.

 

[ewoodrick]

I think as a whole it's much better with normal carmakers. While I know Nissan historically has phantom braking issues, we have a '23 leaf and it has never given me problems while my model s has done it quite often. (Leaf also handles rain and fog much better, I assume this is due to the S not using its radar anymore) I also use to drive a genesis and that thing was rock solid until the sky was pouring so much it made me think of building an ark lol.

That's not what the results are showing. It seems that everyone is having the problem.

Do a search "Phantom Braking -Tesla"

Countering the ‘Phantom Braking’ Phenomenon

4D imaging radar, with its ultra-high resolution and advanced post-processing, reduces false alarms and detects nearly no phantom objects.

www.wardsauto.com

NHTSA Gets Serious About Phantom Braking Issue Now Affecting 3 Million Hondas | Carscoops

Report learned of 93 injuries and 47 crashes potentially related to unintended automatic braking on Honda’s Accord and CR-V

www.carscoops.com

Phantom Braking Triggers Recall Of 62,000 Chevy Colorados And GMC Canyons | Carscoops

A software issue can cause the front cameras in Colorados and Canyons to see obstacles where none exist, leading to phantom braking

www.carscoops.com

Ok, let's talk phantom braking

www.chevybolt.org

Phantom Braking

www.e-tronforum.com

Subaru EyeSight: Did You Have Problems with Automatic Braking?

Attorneys are investigating whether a class action can be filed following complaints that Subaru’s EyeSight system can detect obstacles that don’t exist, causing unexpected braking. Learn more.

www.classaction.org

Auto Emergency Braking is DANGEROUS....and it just turns...

www.rivianownersforum.com

2022 Mercedes Benz S-Class Problems and Top Complaints - Is Your Car A Lemon?

Reported issues for the 2022 Mercedes Benz S Class include structural & electrical problems. Lemberg Law can help you!

lemberglaw.com

phantom front parking sensor warnings and emergency...

www.pacificaforums.com

 

[zoomer0056]

That's not what the results are showing. It seems that everyone is having the problem.

Do a search "Phantom Braking -Tesla"

Countering the ‘Phantom Braking’ Phenomenon

4D imaging radar, with its ultra-high resolution and advanced post-processing, reduces false alarms and detects nearly no phantom objects.

www.wardsauto.com

NHTSA Gets Serious About Phantom Braking Issue Now Affecting 3 Million Hondas | Carscoops

Report learned of 93 injuries and 47 crashes potentially related to unintended automatic braking on Honda’s Accord and CR-V

www.carscoops.com

Phantom Braking Triggers Recall Of 62,000 Chevy Colorados And GMC Canyons | Carscoops

A software issue can cause the front cameras in Colorados and Canyons to see obstacles where none exist, leading to phantom braking

www.carscoops.com

Ok, let's talk phantom braking

www.chevybolt.org

Phantom Braking

www.e-tronforum.com

Subaru EyeSight: Did You Have Problems with Automatic Braking?

Attorneys are investigating whether a class action can be filed following complaints that Subaru’s EyeSight system can detect obstacles that don’t exist, causing unexpected braking. Learn more.

www.classaction.org

Auto Emergency Braking is DANGEROUS....and it just turns...

www.rivianownersforum.com

2022 Mercedes Benz S-Class Problems and Top Complaints - Is Your Car A Lemon?

Reported issues for the 2022 Mercedes Benz S Class include structural & electrical problems. Lemberg Law can help you!

lemberglaw.com

phantom front parking sensor warnings and emergency...

www.pacificaforums.com

Most of those articles are old. From 2022 even 2021.

 

[SadPanda]

That's not what the results are showing. It seems that everyone is having the problem.

Do a search "Phantom Braking -Tesla"

Countering the ‘Phantom Braking’ Phenomenon

4D imaging radar, with its ultra-high resolution and advanced post-processing, reduces false alarms and detects nearly no phantom objects.

www.wardsauto.com

NHTSA Gets Serious About Phantom Braking Issue Now Affecting 3 Million Hondas | Carscoops

Report learned of 93 injuries and 47 crashes potentially related to unintended automatic braking on Honda’s Accord and CR-V

www.carscoops.com

Phantom Braking Triggers Recall Of 62,000 Chevy Colorados And GMC Canyons | Carscoops

A software issue can cause the front cameras in Colorados and Canyons to see obstacles where none exist, leading to phantom braking

www.carscoops.com

Ok, let's talk phantom braking

www.chevybolt.org

Phantom Braking

www.e-tronforum.com

Subaru EyeSight: Did You Have Problems with Automatic Braking?

Attorneys are investigating whether a class action can be filed following complaints that Subaru’s EyeSight system can detect obstacles that don’t exist, causing unexpected braking. Learn more.

www.classaction.org

Auto Emergency Braking is DANGEROUS....and it just turns...

www.rivianownersforum.com

2022 Mercedes Benz S-Class Problems and Top Complaints - Is Your Car A Lemon?

Reported issues for the 2022 Mercedes Benz S Class include structural & electrical problems. Lemberg Law can help you!

lemberglaw.com

phantom front parking sensor warnings and emergency...

www.pacificaforums.com

The amount of phantom braking is nowhere near how frequently it happens in Teslas. The gm one was what 62k cars? Meanwhile it's nearly the Tesla lineup that has issues with phantom braking due to using vision only.

Nissan was the largest culprit iirc and perhaps Honda is having issues but it's generally a solved problem. There might be a certain area that could make the sensors confused but in the Tesla it just randomly happens which is so much worse. In a system like this consistency is key.

 

[ewoodrick]

@zoomer0056 - 2021 and 2022 vehicles are still on the road, many consider them nearly new. They don't get software updates and will live with the same functionality for the rest of their lives.

@SadPanda 93 injuries and 47 crashes in Hondas doesn't seem to be a problem for you. How many injuries and crashed have occurred in Teslas can be attributed to phantom braking?

There are a LOT of people who have not experienced phantom braking in Teslas. And unlike most every other vehicle, Tesla is making the overall fleet better with OTA updates.

Biggest point is, this is NOT A TESLA PROBLEM. It's an industry problem.

And it's exaggerated because of the perception put on "don't hit a person" pressures.

 

[texas_star_TM3]

@zoomer0056 - 2021 and 2022 vehicles are still on the road, many consider them nearly new. They don't get software updates and will live with the same functionality for the rest of their lives.

@SadPanda 93 injuries and 47 crashes in Hondas doesn't seem to be a problem for you. How many injuries and crashed have occurred in Teslas can be attributed to phantom braking?

There are a LOT of people who have not experienced phantom braking in Teslas. And unlike most every other vehicle, Tesla is making the overall fleet better with OTA updates.

Biggest point is, this is NOT A TESLA PROBLEM. It's an industry problem.

And it's exaggerated because of the perception put on "don't hit a person" pressures.

My wife’s CX-5 never experienced PBs in countless roadtrips. Meanwhile our 2019 Model 3 AWD can’t go a single drive to Taos NM without *multiple* sudden brake applications on a wide open road. Again - going from 80mph down to 50mph within seconds for no reason. Good stuff.

 

[SadPanda]

@zoomer0056 - 2021 and 2022 vehicles are still on the road, many consider them nearly new. They don't get software updates and will live with the same functionality for the rest of their lives.

@SadPanda 93 injuries and 47 crashes in Hondas doesn't seem to be a problem for you. How many injuries and crashed have occurred in Teslas can be attributed to phantom braking?

There are a LOT of people who have not experienced phantom braking in Teslas. And unlike most every other vehicle, Tesla is making the overall fleet better with OTA updates.

Biggest point is, this is NOT A TESLA PROBLEM. It's an industry problem.

And it's exaggerated because of the perception put on "don't hit a person" pressures.

Man what a fanboy. How many cars does Honda sell? It's a lot compared to Tesla. The deaths are injuries are tragic but it's far less common in the rest of the industry. You wanna harp on Honda sure and we will see what happens. Perhaps certain models did have badly tuned emergency brake like Nissan struggled with but don't try to say it's the entire industry.

Drive any car on a dealer lot and you will struggle to find phantom braking. Drive any Tesla and it appears everywhere. To be fair I have not tried to radar S or X but the older ones and even newer model 3 and Y have it. It's random and it's much worse. I'm lucky to hace friends that let me borrow their cars to test. I also test drive official Tesla dealers. Guess what? It happens quite a bit and what's worse, random. Radar cars use to freak out when these is a oddly low overpass with cars or a tight turn lane but nowadays most newer cars do just fine. However at least that's consistent. With Teslas cameras I have no clue when the computer is gonna freak out.

It's also far more documented. Think of the volume other car makers shift. If this was a problem it would be in the news way more and so far from socials to official news, it's Tesla. Can it be better via ota? Sure but I'll believe it when it happens. Hiding behind "it's just an update away" is not helpful for this discussion.

 

[ewoodrick]

My wife’s CX-5 never experienced PBs in countless roadtrips. Meanwhile our 2019 Model 3 AWD can’t go a single drive to Taos NM without *multiple* sudden brake applications on a wide open road. Again - going from 80mph down to 50mph within seconds for no reason. Good stuff.

Good for your wife's CX-5. It's pretty much the simplest of TACC implementations with simplest following capabilities.

 

[ewoodrick]

Man what a fanboy. How many cars does Honda sell? It's a lot compared to Tesla.

It's just about double. So how many injuries and accidents attributable to phantom braking in Teslas?

This is an industry problem, not just Tesla's.