FUD threads in TMC?

[verygreen]

"Cars with HW2.0 cannot upgrade to FSD because they use different radar, cameras etc than cars with hardware 2.5."

Fact is there is no different radar or camera in HW 2.5. Just another computer with redundant wiring

nice goalpost switching right here. Take a true statement, then construct some strange strawman.

nobody's claiming hw2.5 radar and cameras are different, just hw2.0. So hw2.0 cannot be upgraded, not hw2.5 (hw2.5 has other problems on a model3 that make upgrade somewhat unlikely).

If you are claiming hw2.0 radar and cameras are the same as hw2.5.... well, you are the misinformed one. (also the "just redundant wiring" is a lot more than that). Go check epc.teslamotors.com, watch for the before/after Aug 2017 notes to distinguish hw2.0 and hw2.5, note the different partnumbers of cameras, radar and such. Do observe the wiring changes too (I think parts of it is visible there)

 

[electronblue]

Cars with HW2.0 cannot upgrade to FSD because they use different radar, cameras etc than cars with hardware 2.5."

Fact is there is no different radar or camera in HW 2.5. Just another computer with redundant wiring

Tesla has a new Autopilot ‘2.5’ hardware suite with more computing power for autonomous driving

People just start saying somethings without sources and people keep repeating it as being a certainty.

I make no judgement on AP2 upgradeability but this is totally false and you are wrong.

Autopilot 2.5 has a new dual-channel radar from a different manufacturer than AP2 (which has the single-channel AP1 radar). The parts catalogs make this clear.

Autopilot 2.5 also has a new set of camera parts with one more color filter than AP2 so AP 2.5 can see is fairly good color while AP2 imagery is basically black and white with red. This is evident in both shots taken from the cameras, the parts databases and the fact that AP 2.5 cars have color dashcam while AP2 has none.

Both changes may contribute to material differences over time. In fact they are speculated to be one reason why AP 2.5 has dashcam and sentry while AP2 does not...

I am sure @lunitiks can provide the sources if need be or read up on the Autonomous Vehicles subforum here.

 

[lunitiks]

Let’s order them from eBay and compare!

Buy Tesla Model S Bosch Radar Sensor Module OEM 1038224-00-b online | eBay

16-18 TESLA MODEL S 3 X FRONT RADAR SENSOR SEVEN PIN PERPENDICULAR 1108647-00-B | eBay

 

[electronblue]

In response to the now deleted post that AP2’s color rear camera is somehow relevant, just to be clear: it is not.

The rear camera is the only camera assembly/part shared by AP2 and AP2.5 and indeed it is full color. None of the other cameras are full color, AP2 is BW+red, AP2.5 adds one more color filter for a sort of faux-full-color.

Even this is not quite as simple as the rear camera solution in Model 3 differs from the AP2.5 on Model S/X.

In any case, AP2 and AP2.5 have different radar and camera parts with clear functional differences. This is a fact.

 

[verygreen]

Even this is not quite as simple as the rear camera solution in Model 3 differs from the AP2.5 on Model S/X.

rear camera in model3 appears to be same as all the other cameras (hence why people sometimes say it's bad compared to S/X even though it's actually higher resolution I guess?)

But there are differences in the way hw2.5 nand hw2.0 connect the same backup camera too with the hw splitter in hw2.5 (and a separate power line for it it looks like) and lack of such on hw2.0

 

[lunitiks]

Deal with it. Man.

 

[StealthP3D]

I agree that they may have bitten off more than they can chew in the auto production market, once that's moved to China they will reduce prices again.

Asia manufacturing is only for the Asian markets. Why would that reduce prices in the rest of the world?

I think the recent price drops are something they know are necessary to make EV's mainstream and increasing weekly production while cutting expenses (stores, employees, etc) is what allowed them to reduce prices. Keeping prices high would have allowed for higher margins but put a lid on sales volume and profits (being limited to the luxury segment which is pretty small). Tesla needs fast growth to service their debt and plugging away at 100,000 cars/year would not have got them there even if margins were higher.

But I thought this thread was about people whose primary purpose here is to use FUD to slow down Tesla's market penetration. And I found it ironic that the second post (and a bunch following) appeared to be exactly what the title of this thread was calling out. Almost like they were saying "But we're saying it because it's true, not to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt." However, looking at some of these peoples post history will show that they focus almost exclusively on trying to portray Tesla and their products in a negative light. Some are not even Tesla owners while some pretend to be owners but are actually not.

 

[electronblue]

And I found it ironic that the second post (and a bunch following) appeared to be exactly what the title of this thread was calling out. Almost like they were saying "But we're saying it because it's true, not to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt." However, looking at some of these peoples post history will show that they focus almost exclusively on trying to portray Tesla and their products in a negative light. Some are not even Tesla owners while some pretend to be owners but are actually not.

Ironically this is FUD on the posters of this thread.

 

[electronblue]

rear camera in model3 appears to be same as all the other cameras (hence why people sometimes say it's bad compared to S/X even though it's actually higher resolution I guess?)

But there are differences in the way hw2.5 nand hw2.0 connect the same backup camera too with the hw splitter in hw2.5 (and a separate power line for it it looks like) and lack of such on hw2.0

I believe also a portion of the quality difference comes from the different connection method, was there a network connection for the camera on Model 3 instead of video passthrough — to the user-facing computer that is?

 

[dnvr-ev]

Price drops are generally considered good. That's a product's manufacturing maturing.
Round 1 layoffs earlier this year was normal corporate cleanup. The recent store closing was simple realignment and moving back to core concepts.
Demand drop off is BS. There was a huge push at the end of year, only the blind would not have seen it coming. But Tesla already had plans to combat it with overseas sales as well as base model. And lowering prices just is icing on the cake

I tend to think that they have been taking the exact right path. Sure, if I were to buy a car today, as opposed to when I got it a year ago, I wouldn't spend as much money. But no matter what, I'd do the same thing again.

They literally modeled their stores after Apple. They spent countless millions (maybe hundreds of millions) setting up stores and hiring employees to create an apple like experience for the sale of their cars. They suddenly shut it all down and threw that entire investment away.

It is a scary looking move. They could have kept the base Model 3 at $40k and Elon could have said, “we came close to $35k. In order to keep our stores open and provide better warranty service, the intro Model 3 will be $40k.” Hardly anyone would have cared. Instead, they made everyone worry about what is really going on. Its not unjustified FUD. And I have a right to worry. My house is powered by Tesla and I drive one too.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

I hear that, but I don’t think anyone here is questioning the product.

You don’t get to spend OPM forever...at some point, you either sustain yourself, or you are politely asked to stop.

Elon talked a lot of smack when Model 3 production was being planned. Everyone in the automotive world was an idiot...it was going to be so automated that it would be unsafe for humans to be in the factory. (that ended up being half true anyway). Ultimately they failed on all those goals. They make their vehicle less efficiently than the existing makers...instead of 2 orders of magnitude more efficient as claimed (laughable naïveté). They don’t produce their own battery cells or PV cells, contracting with Panasonic for both. All these failures to achieve the goals are the reason they can’t make money at $35k. Sorry, but that’s the reality.

Dropping the price and closing the stores is not some brilliant new strategy, it’s a decision forced by low demand and a need to keep the cash coming. A traditional OEM can push inventory into the dealer network by financial coercion. When you own(ed) the stores, that flexibility is gone.

If I had to bet, I think it’s over for the Musk era. But someone will buy the company...and hopefully keep the thing going. The reality is probably a giant pause is coming to the EV roll at other OEMs when they find out it’s a niche market with limited profit potential and a crowded field. Hope I’m wrong, but that’s what I expect.

If the demand really isn’t there for one of the best cars ever made then it’s because Tesla/Elon scared them away in the final hour. Elon doesn’t instill the confidence that he use to. He’s misled his customers. Fought with nobodys on Twitter etc...And now closing stores erratically and impulsively. People want to buy cars from a stable company that can properly service them. I’m sure things aren’t as bad as they look, but it doesn’t look good.

 

[electronblue]

If the demand really isn’t there for one of the best cars ever made then it’s because Tesla/Elon scared them away in the final hour. Elon doesn’t instill the confidence that he use to. He’s misled his customers. Fought with nobodys on Twitter etc...And now closing stores erratically and impulsively. People want to buy cars from a stable company that can properly service them. I’m sure things aren’t as bad as they look, but it doesn’t look good.

I think there is some merit to this fear, yes. The way Tesla is being run (and how Elon behaves) has gone from dynamic and fast-adapting to simply erratic. They are burning bridges with existing customers and creating worries for new customers at such a rate that there has to be at least some PR price to it.

And just like the FSD debacle and so many other demand levers that have soured Tesla for many, it seems to be unnecessary. With a bit less bleeding edge all these things could have likely been achieved with less mayhem.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

I think there is some merit to this fear, yes. The way Tesla is being run (and how Elon behaves) has gone from dynamic and fast-adapting to simply erratic. They are burning bridges with existing customers and creating worries for new customers at such a rate that there has to be at least some PR price to it.

And just like the FSD debacle and so many other demand levers that have soured Tesla for many, it seems to unnecessary. With a bit less bleeding edge all these things could have likely been achieved with less mayhem.

So totally unnecessary. That’s the saddest part. I think Elon is no longer fit to be the face of the company. He’s obviously not a genius when it comes to public relations.

 

[GeoX750]

Trading price for volume.

Dan

Bring on the $25K Model 3 then !

Asia manufacturing is only for the Asian markets. Why would that reduce prices in the rest of the world?

I think the recent price drops are something they know are necessary to make EV's mainstream and increasing weekly production while cutting expenses (stores, employees, etc) is what allowed them to reduce prices. Keeping prices high would have allowed for higher margins but put a lid on sales volume and profits (being limited to the luxury segment which is pretty small). Tesla needs fast growth to service their debt and plugging away at 100,000 cars/year would not have got them there even if margins were higher.

But I thought this thread was about people whose primary purpose here is to use FUD to slow down Tesla's market penetration. And I found it ironic that the second post (and a bunch following) appeared to be exactly what the title of this thread was calling out. Almost like they were saying "But we're saying it because it's true, not to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt." However, looking at some of these peoples post history will show that they focus almost exclusively on trying to portray Tesla and their products in a negative light. Some are not even Tesla owners while some pretend to be owners but are actually not.

The irony is really lost on you.

 

[StealthP3D]

Its not unjustified FUD.

The most effective FUD is FUD with an element of truth. It's not the subject matter that makes it FUD, it's the intent of the person spreading it. Someone who focusses on the negative with the majority of their posts either has a personality disorder or a hidden agenda.

Automakers and oil companies can spend untold millions of dollars with slick ad campaigns designed to make you think they are environmental and technologically advanced but it's much cheaper and more effective to run a negative advertising campaign designed to make you think the alternative isn't ready for prime time yet.

 

[electronblue]

Someone who focusses on the negative with the majority of their posts either has a personality disorder or a hidden agenda.

Or someone for whom the experience has been legitimately soured and they express their true feelings.

People who bought, say, P85Ds on HP promises, P90DLs on 0-60 promises or FSD in 2016 on ”Level 5 capable Tesla Network” promises (insert any other such controversy here) may have a genuinely different perspective than someone who just bought a Model 3.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

The most effective FUD is FUD with an element of truth. It's not the subject matter that makes it FUD, it's the intent of the person spreading it. Someone who focusses on the negative with the majority of their posts either has a personality disorder or a hidden agenda.

Automakers and oil companies can spend untold millions of dollars with slick ad campaigns designed to make you think they are environmental and technologically advanced but it's much cheaper and more effective to run a negative advertising campaign designed to make you think the alternative isn't ready for prime time yet.

It’s definitely ready for prime time, thanks to Elon and Tesla.

 

[StealthP3D]

Or someone for whom the experience has been legitimately soured and they express their true feelings.

I could understand that if the car was junk but we have two Model 3's and they are, by far, the best cars we have ever had. We've owned two Volvo's, four VW's, a Subaru, a Ford, and two Nissan's.

So I would consider that a personality disorder.

 

[electronblue]

I could understand that if the car was junk but we have two Model 3's and they are, by far, the best cars we have ever had. We've owned two Volvo's, four VW's, a Subaru, a Ford, and two Nissan's.

Indeed. Many of us are truly flabbergasted and saddened that the maker of such great products has behaved they way they have, seemingly totally unnecessarily.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Or someone for whom the experience has been legitimately soured and they express their true feelings.

People who bought, say, P85Ds on HP promises, P90DLs on 0-60 promises or FSD in 2016 on ”Level 5 capable Tesla Network” promises (insert any other such controversy here) may have a genuinely different perspective than someone who just bought a Model 3.

Ahhh...there it is. The "P" word again.

Dan