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FUD threads in TMC?

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Definitely an opinion piece and never claims otherwise. Still worth reading the whole thing imo. But I read this whole thread, so I realize my opinion is highly flawed o_O

It is an opinion peice and there's nothing wrong with that. But when the author demonstrates his opinion is based on even less than I know, it's hard to afford much weight to that opinion.

Thanks for sharing it, I wasn't tying to implicate you in any way.
 
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Well, just be glad they don't nerf the performance with an OTA update after they are a couple of years old like Apple did with iPhone processors in a sad attempt to get you to upgrade to a snappier, newer model.

You lack history with Tesla. I am just surprised @verygreen missed this one too (he is right Tesla did this with DC fast charging too though).

Tesla did exactly that with the Performance models, were sued and were ordered by a judge to reverse course (which they kind of did but not fully).

After a certain number of launches Tesla nerfed their Peformance models permanently, especially the poor out of luck P90DL guys. They basically lowered HP permanently. It was uncovered and sued by people on TMC. Successfully. After that Tesla sort of returned (most of) the performance and promised parts replacements for those affected.

Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

I think it is time for you to consider the possibility that you do not know Tesla. Many of us do and hence our opinion of Tesla is different than your’s.
 
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I think it is time for you to consider the possibility that you do not know Tesla. Many of us do and hence our opinion of Tesla is different than your’s.

No, I've never met him.;)

Tesla is a corporation, not a person, and a relatively young one at that. Their management has changed just as often as the management of the average corporation and thus it is always in flux. Trying to say they will continue to make the same mistakes as in the past is a projection and a leap of faith I'm not willing to make. Remember, I'm not saying "Tesla can do no wrong", I'm just judging my experiences as an owner of two Tesla and, so far, I'm still estatic. I can't believe I was finally able to buy a car this good, it's my dream.

Regardless of my current ownership experience, I can judge current events without having to project past actions to know whether it's wright or wrong.

For example, there has much teeth gnashing recently about the price cuts. A few people think it's completely unfair that their neighbor can buy the same car they have for about $4,000 less. To that I say, BFD! A corporation has the right to adjust pricing to market conditions as often as they like. The purchase/sale agreement I have from September 2018 does not become null and void because Tesla chose to lower prices. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, people who think they are owed something by Tesla. To which I say "Grow up"!

Maybe if they start their own car company and proceed to make a car as nice as the Model 3, then they can set the price as they see fit and hold it there forever (or else provide refunds to all earlier purchasers). And to those who say they shouldn't be able to buy options that are not developed yet, I say "Then don't buy them". At some point people have to take full responsibility for their actions and stop blaming thee "big bad wolf" who made them do it. :rolleyes:
 
No, I've never met him.;)

Tesla is a corporation, not a person, and a relatively young one at that. Their management has changed just as often as the management of the average corporation and thus it is always in flux. Trying to say they will continue to make the same mistakes as in the past is a projection and a leap of faith I'm not willing to make. Remember, I'm not saying "Tesla can do no wrong", I'm just judging my experiences as an owner of two Tesla and, so far, I'm still estatic. I can't believe I was finally able to buy a car this good, it's my dream.

Regardless of my current ownership experience, I can judge current events without having to project past actions to know whether it's wright or wrong.

For example, there has much teeth gnashing recently about the price cuts. A few people think it's completely unfair that their neighbor can buy the same car they have for about $4,000 less. To that I say, BFD! A corporation has the right to adjust pricing to market conditions as often as they like. The purchase/sale agreement I have from September 2018 does not become null and void because Tesla chose to lower prices. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, people who think they are owed something by Tesla. To which I say "Grow up"!

Maybe if they start their own car company and proceed to make a car as nice as the Model 3, then they can set the price as they see fit and hold it there forever (or else provide refunds to all earlier purchasers). And to those who say they shouldn't be able to buy options that are not developed yet, I say "Then don't buy them". At some point people have to take full responsibility for their actions and stop blaming thee "big bad wolf" who made them do it. :rolleyes:

Tesla’s autocratic CEO is the same and by all accounts the method of running the company remains the same. There is no reason to assume a change. Past is prologue.
 
You are the one who made the ridiculous claim that the Model 3 batteries degrade more quickly than Tesla's first batteries. I asked you to support that and the best you can do is to tell me to show otherwise?
The Tesla being shining example of transparency, you would think provide the details to dispell this, rght?

In reality they use same chemistry on the 3 as they do on the S/X, just different formfactor (or so I think, anyway, Tesla does not really say one way or the other, do they?) and it's a well known fact S/X batteries of later chemistries degrade faster than the 85-chemistries. Extensive testing was performed and I even linked you to a thread where this was discussed amongst other things (of course Tesla does not publish such research beause they are so transparent).

Typically, the person who makes the claim should support it with some evidence. Otherwise it's just FUD.
Well, you just did the opposite claim without any supported evidence, did not you?

First off, in normal temperatures the SC'ing was not limited to 20kW, that's a wild exaggeration and more FUD.
I just extended your argument that rate limiting is good, nowhere I claimed 90-packs were rate limited to 20kW, though.

Yes, if there was a better indicator of when a battery could benefit from limiting the fastest charge speeds that would be the way to go. But I don't know of any better method of determing that. Do you?
Of course there is a better method. you watch the battery closely and when it tarts showing signs of excessive degradation, you do something about it, not just introduce a charge counter with an arbitrary limit - this is the same approach Apple did with their product and you think Apple is in the wrong and Tesla is in the right here?

As far as replacing the batteries, yes, that would be good but not under warranty, battery degradation is not covered.
Nowhere did I say it should have been done under warranty though, and I even mentioned battery degradation is not covered on s/x, but you now try and throw shade on my argument implying I asked for the in-warranty replacements of those packs?
BTW as the 3 owner you must know that battery degradation IS covered on the 3, right? Why are you spreading FUD that Tesla does not cover battery degradation when they clearly do? ;)

What I find troubling is the people who try to paint them as a big, greedy incompetent company with crappy products. Nothing could be further from the truth
Yeah, they are just a big greedy incompetent company that happens to have good products that are often crippled by poor QA and such. "Love my Tesla, BUT ..." is a meme now for a reason, you know.
 
The Tesla being shining example of transparency, you would think provide the details to dispell this, rght?

In reality they use same chemistry on the 3 as they do on the S/X, just different formfactor (or so I think, anyway, Tesla does not really say one way or the other, do they?) and it's a well known fact S/X batteries of later chemistries degrade faster than the 85-chemistries. Extensive testing was performed and I even linked you to a thread where this was discussed amongst other things (of course Tesla does not publish such research beause they are so transparent).


Well, you just did the opposite claim without any supported evidence, did not you?


I just extended your argument that rate limiting is good, nowhere I claimed 90-packs were rate limited to 20kW, though.


Of course there is a better method. you watch the battery closely and when it tarts showing signs of excessive degradation, you do something about it, not just introduce a charge counter with an arbitrary limit - this is the same approach Apple did with their product and you think Apple is in the wrong and Tesla is in the right here?


Nowhere did I say it should have been done under warranty though, and I even mentioned battery degradation is not covered on s/x, but you now try and throw shade on my argument implying I asked for the in-warranty replacements of those packs?
BTW as the 3 owner you must know that battery degradation IS covered on the 3, right? Why are you spreading FUD that Tesla does not cover battery degradation when they clearly do? ;)


Yeah, they are just a big greedy incompetent company that happens to have good products that are often crippled by poor QA and such. "Love my Tesla, BUT ..." is a meme now for a reason, you know.

Trying to have a productive discussion with you is like playing tennis against a brick wall.

No thank you!
 
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My point is: There is reason why many people treat Tesla with the suspicion they do and it would be a mistake to assume the reason is FUD. They have their reasons. There is the history. You can learn from it or ignore it, but this is the background.

I don't ignore it, I'm naturally a critical thinker and trust has to be earned. If Tesla had made you suspicious, that is your perogitive.

I'm glad I'm not overly suspicious, I would have missed out on the best two cars I've ever had the pleasure of driving and owning.:cool:
 
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I think there is some merit to this fear, yes. The way Tesla is being run (and how Elon behaves) has gone from dynamic and fast-adapting to simply erratic. They are burning bridges with existing customers and creating worries for new customers at such a rate that there has to be at least some PR price to it.

And just like the FSD debacle and so many other demand levers that have soured Tesla for many, it seems to be unnecessary. With a bit less bleeding edge all these things could have likely been achieved with less mayhem.

FUD!!! You guys must be short Tesla. Elon is just building a company that is Hyper-nimble!
 
I hear that, but I don’t think anyone here is questioning the product.

You don’t get to spend OPM forever...at some point, you either sustain yourself, or you are politely asked to stop.

Elon talked a lot of smack when Model 3 production was being planned. Everyone in the automotive world was an idiot...it was going to be so automated that it would be unsafe for humans to be in the factory. (that ended up being half true anyway). Ultimately they failed on all those goals. They make their vehicle less efficiently than the existing makers...instead of 2 orders of magnitude more efficient as claimed (laughable naïveté). They don’t produce their own battery cells or PV cells, contracting with Panasonic for both. All these failures to achieve the goals are the reason they can’t make money at $35k. Sorry, but that’s the reality.

Dropping the price and closing the stores is not some brilliant new strategy, it’s a decision forced by low demand and a need to keep the cash coming. A traditional OEM can push inventory into the dealer network by financial coercion. When you own(ed) the stores, that flexibility is gone.

If I had to bet, I think it’s over for the Musk era. But someone will buy the company...and hopefully keep the thing going. The reality is probably a giant pause is coming to the EV roll at other OEMs when they find out it’s a niche market with limited profit potential and a crowded field. Hope I’m wrong, but that’s what I expect.
Here's reality for you...

New cars sales expected to stall, dinging the Detroit 3

New vehicles are piling up on U.S. car dealer lots, creating concern just as sales are expected to sputter.

The inventory of unsold new cars on dealer lots rose 2.1 percent last month, setting an all-time February high, a top industry analyst said in a research note this week. That total of 4 million new vehicles in U.S. stock is a 21-month high, Morgan Stanley's equity analyst Adam Jonas wrote. In dollar terms, it's about $140 billion in inventory, Jonas wrote.
 
I don't ignore it, I'm naturally a critical thinker and trust has to be earned. If Tesla had made you suspicious, that is your perogitive.

I'm glad I'm not overly suspicious, I would have missed out on the best two cars I've ever had the pleasure of driving and owning.:cool:

A lot of us drive Teslas too and have bought more of them than you have. Having experience and a realistic view of the company and owning their products are not mutually exclusive — indeed the former often follows from the latter...
 
Indeed. Many of us are truly flabbergasted and saddened that the maker of such great products has behaved they way they have, seemingly totally unnecessarily.
Having dealt with a spectacular runaround trying to get Tesla to give me a VIN so that I could get insurance in NY (Tesla was demanding insurance in order to give me a VIN)... back in 2012... I sort of expected much of Tesla's worst behavior. After 7 years of customer communications disasters, Musk finally recognized that it was a problem. Slow learner in some ways.
 
Start a car company with worldwide manufacturing, sales, service and charging infrastructure—and do so profitably—without using anyone else’s money. That sounds rational.

Allow me to cry bullshit in loud and deliberate voice.

While I believe in freedom of speech, TMC admins need to develop a bullshit filter. When someone or something repeatedly posts known lies and falsehoods, they should be filtered out.

Libel is illegal, and should it should be.
 
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