Graphene Polymer Battery 497 Mile Range

[wdolson]

Exactly! This is what I've been arguing to the disbelievers. Batteries, and even Li Ion batteries, are an old technology, but there are aspects of the application itself that will inevitably drive major changes:

1. Their large scale use in vehicles is new. What we have right now are cells that are optimized for computers and household devices, and co-opted for cars. Vehicles are a completely different application - both in the usage pattern and sheer volume. There is an enormous amount of auto industry industrial engineering & optimization to be done in the product design, manufacturing process and supply chain that will bring down the cost & improve energy density. I'm convinced that we haven't even seen the start of this process yet. Tesla has started the process - but 50,000 cars per year is peanuts. Once we get >500,000 per year, we will start to see some serious progress.

2. The sheer scale of the potential market for automotive batteries is unprecedented. We're still at the very early stages of this. Once the wave starts to really build, the amount of intellectual investment in the development of battery chemistry & construction will be enormous. With that amount of effort, we will absolutely see continuous incremental & probably some step improvements. It will not be a doubling in 24 months, but 5-10% per year seems very plausible.

Unless the Koch Bros succeed in killing the industry, within another decade we should have EV packs with 800 km range that sell for < $50 per kwh, and that charge at about double the current rate. And at that point, it's all over but the crying.

True.

I suspect demand for EVs will be there before the car industry can deliver in large volumes. Building the 200 Gigafactory equivalents needed to supply the entire passenger vehicle market is going to take a lot of time and capital to build. We're talking about investing around $1 Trillion USD. Nobody is going to spend that kind of money lightly.

In 10 years high end EVs like the Model S/X will likely have 500-1000 miles range on a charge which will eliminate the need to stop at superchargers, but will require hotels have high power chargers. Smaller EVs will still need some kind of charging on the road because their battery packs a little bigger than a 15 gallon gas tank now will only have 200-250 miles of range.

 

[SΞXY P100D]

That's like an idea I saw where some company turns Co2 into plastic. The environmental benefits are very limited though and more expensive ( most likely ), especially since Tesla isn't profitable this isn't the best idea.

I know the idea is indeed coming out of left field. I just wish that someone could figure out a way to reverse the polar ice caps melting by siphoning greenhouse gases out of the atmosphere. Maybe it can't be done, but it needs to be done.

This article states that Greenland today is gushing meltwater at the rate of 20 Niagara Falls per second: Greenland: 'Ice sheet is now losing about 8,000 tons every second, year-round, day in and day out'

 

[RadicalIgnorant]

I understand what you're saying and agree that would be appropriate.

What actually happens here is that people are so pre-dispositioned to dissaproval (see all the 'don't send a ppt' comments) that any announcement of technology gets torn apart as if it was regarding immediately deployable technology.

In other words, people jump to the conclusion of: new tech = sheisters = must post something negative. It's semantics whether the intent of the post is to tear apart the actual technology or the company or the people doing the research or the announcement itself, because they're one in the same.

I agree. There are over dozen posts here bashing this announcement. Every one is just repeating generic and statisticaly valid arguments. There is no single argument why this single idea could not work. There is, just nobody presented it here I mean. So it is true that : "If it's not Tesla it is bullshit" is quite well established agreement here.

Some argue that there is time between lab and industry. That is true. But lab working prototype is not a bullshit, even if it can be available only in the future. In similar ways people often dismissed electric cars. It's just beginning to change.

Problem with graphene is: we still have no idea how to do it in quantities, no matter long years of research. So could be revolutionary if we learned this one super tricky obstacle. And yes there are many industries which would love to use this wundermaterial. So it's like ultra capacitors. Technically possible but requires big breakthrough.

 

[jbcarioca]

I agree. There are over dozen posts here bashing this announcement. Every one is just repeating generic and statisticaly valid arguments. There is no single argument why this single idea could not work. There is, just nobody presented it here I mean. So it is true that : "If it's not Tesla it is bullshit" is quite well established agreement here...

As one who might be part of the "bashers" I think a bit of explanation is in order.

First, the title of the thread implies hyperbole:
"Graphene Polymer Battery 497 Mile Range"
It really is not hard to achieve that today with current technology, but the compromises might be disagreeable. There is precisely zero evidence today that graphene polymer or any other technology can achieve economical, reliable, robust power storage better than can the evolution of li-ion.

Second, most of us who are said to be negative, Tesla fans probably, are thinking about engineering and production issues.

Third, most of us are the same people who are applauding the Airbus/Siemens JV to produce electric and hybrid aircraft.

The issue is really not negativity. It is simply overly optimistic forecast of production ready scalable solutions.

Anyway, graphene already has many practical applications and research will continue, including for battery storage, but taht does not remotely suggest that the practical deployment of that material in BEV energy storage can happen within the next decade. Maybe, maybe not. A quick look through present applications of graphene taht are viable now is easy to find with an internet search.

In the meantime graphene has helped produce another potential miracle material:
http://gizmodo.com/scientists-finally-made-carbyne-a-material-stronger-tha-1770682640

Next, applications of such normal things as LED headlights took decades to actually happen. From the 1907 discovery to the 1961 Texas Instruments advance to 1994 commercial use it still took another twenty years before fully reliable, practical, durable, cheap, automotive headlights could be deployed at scale. There were thousands of people spending massive amounts of money for decades before we reached the wonderful state we have today with this technology.

Nobody wants to throw negativity on these developments, but most of us do not want to hype something that is a long way from happening.
If we were not dreamers we'd probably not even be here as BEV drivers and posters on this forum. We still need to understand that new technologies are rarely so instantaneous as they seem to be in retrospect. So, where will be the tipping point? The internet, clearly described in theory in 1963, finally took shape in the 1990's. Nobody had a clue what it might do, even if they claim otherwise. FWIW, I worked with ARPANET in the 1980's. I never heard a single soul imagine what it might eventually become. New materials will be like that too, just like LED's. One day, seemingly suddenly, the technical barriers will dissipate and practical people will deploy madly.

In te meantime science fiction, not fantasy, has driven much of the technological commitment of our world. We can only hope taht there will be no McDonald's in the Mars Colony, at least for the first few decades.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

production of graphene just got easier Researchers ‘got lucky,’ can create light, strong material graphene out of acetylene gas, spark plug

 

[wdolson]

btw, where i can buy graphene?

Here's one site that turned up in a quick search:
The Price Of Graphene – Graphenea

Just search for it online, I'm sure you'll find something in the EU.