Has anyone put in an aftermarket motor yet?

[Drizzle]

Wondering how realistic it is to do this with all of the software behind the cars.

If I could, I'd buy a model S motor from tesla and put it as my rear in my model 3.

 

[SSedan]

The power is limited by the software and battery capabilities, there is very likely power left there. May be power to be had along with reprogramming in new fuses and cables etc.

S is an AC induction motor rather than a permanent magnet motor I am no electrical engineer but complexity wise I bet that swap is as bad as trying to swap and ICE from gas to diesel, probably worse once you get into the fact they are integrated to the rear suspension and drive.

 

[djb2942]

Why would you even consider this?

 

[DrDabbles]

The front motor in the Model 3 is similar to the motors in the S. They're induction motors. The rear motor in the Model 3 is actually a superior motor to what is in the S, because it's a PMSRM- Permanent Magnet Switched Reluctance Motor, and the magnets are arranged as a Hallbach array which creates a stronger magnetic flux.

If I had to guess, I'd say the S and X are eventually going to switch over to either two PMSRM motors, or the Model 3 rear PMSRM with front induction motor. We also know that the Semi is using the Model 3 motors, so Tesla seems pretty confident that they're more than reliable enough for a million mile warranty.

 

[HyperMiler]

If the concept ever requires to not use the motor on that axle, you either need a clutch or you cannot use a permanent magnet rotor, because a permanent magnet rotor will otherwise always resist/ work as a generator. Which is why they use the combination and not two of the same.

 

[DrDabbles]

If the concept ever requires to not use the motor on that axle, you either need a clutch or you cannot use a permanent magnet rotor, because a permanent magnet rotor will otherwise always resist/ work as a generator. Which is why they use the combination and not two of the same.

Sure, but a generator with no load offers no (mechanical) resistance. Like when regen is severely limited due to pack temperature.

 

[SSedan]

I thought with the permanent magnet they had to resort to some electrical trickery to negate the electrical feedback for times when regen is unavailable like towing. I think it still makes power they just play games to mitigate it.

 

[dmurphy]

What would the upside of something like that be?

Everything I read seems to indicate that Tesla is years ahead of their competition when it comes to motor design and technology. It’s one of the “secret sauces” that make Tesla feasible.

So that said ... what kind of motor would you replace them with? What would it buy you?

 

[Drizzle]

What would the upside of something like that be?

Everything I read seems to indicate that Tesla is years ahead of their competition when it comes to motor design and technology. It’s one of the “secret sauces” that make Tesla feasible.

So that said ... what kind of motor would you replace them with? What would it buy you?

The model S and X's motors are snappier at 0 acceleration. The front motor on the model 3 is the same kind, the rear motor is not. The rear motor is cheaper and "laggier".

Why would you even consider this?

Are you serious? Because if I can get 2.8 ish 0-60 acceleration for less than 80k I'd save a ton of money? The only other option is a 140k Model S tog o faster. That is much faster as well (2.1 second). There is no in between option right now.

 

[DrDabbles]

The model S and X's motors are snappier at 0 acceleration. The front motor on the model 3 is the same kind, the rear motor is not. The rear motor is cheaper and "laggier".

I'm guessing you heard this on a YouTube video. We're talking small fractions of a second. Nothing you're going to notice in any situation you'll ever be in.

Are you serious? Because if I can get 2.8 ish 0-60 acceleration for less than 80k I'd save a ton of money? The only other option is a 140k Model S tog o faster. That is much faster as well (2.1 second). There is no in between option right now.

Buying motor controllers, plus motors, and paying someone to write firmware for you, plus all of the other hacking you'd need to do to keep the rest of the car from complaining about the motors, _plus_ the mods you would need to allow the onboard battery pack to output more power, you're going to be way over that 140k pricetag.

If you want to build a fast car based on Tesla motors, build a kit car. If you want to try to convert an existing Model 3 to use Model S motors, and you want to supply more power to those motors, it's simply going to be beyond prohibitive. You'd need to replace the whole penthouse, or at least find a way to flash your own software onto it and lie to the other controllers and computers. It's just not a feasible idea.

 

[ℬête Noire]

Are you serious? Because if I can get 2.8 ish 0-60 acceleration for less than 80k I'd save a ton of money?

Because, as others have tried to explain, it doesn't make sense to replace just the "motor". The motor is wedded to the whole drive unit. Or frankly just the drive unit. The Model S is a lot bigger vehicle and the drive unit is a lot bigger, and the Model 3 doesn't really have a lot of room in there to "drop in" replace with something bigger. You'd be chopping body-frame all over the place, and the weight balance would be crazy. .... and then you'd have to worry about the software so you'd be trying to chop up the computer system and now you're into the battery pack.

Then you're looking at something like this and WTF would you be doing this to a Model 3? Because it's "electric"? Only you don't really get to leverage that BEV nature. Better to just find a stripped bare, much smaller package that can function as a hull to fill , on the cheap.

 

[sreams]

The rear motor is cheaper and "laggier".

This statement is simply inaccurate. The PMSRM in the 3 is actually superior to Tesla's AC induction motor in some ways. One particular advantage: Efficiency.

Is it actually cheaper? Only Tesla could answer that, and they probably won't release their internal costs to us.

 

[EVSteve]

If anyone has they’re being very tight lipped about it and for good reason. Being locked out of software updates and Supercharger access is one of the consequences for tampering with systems. Look at the number of salvage cars locked out despite using factory parts for repairs.

Until third party quick charging gets a foothold I would expect any modifiers to keep their FrankenTeslas under the radar.

 

[silentsnow31802]

Why would you even consider this?

Because modifying cars is a thing. Even electric ones.

 

[Feathermerchan]

I believe the Model S motor cooling scheme is different than the 3. Best bet is to get the whole drive unit because it has the inverter specific to the motor and cut the Model 3 body if necessary to make it fit. You'll also need to 'tub' it to make room for those bigger wheels and tires. Probly need to use the S axles and hubs as well. You may find it easier to swap the whole subframe using an adapter.
For all the work it would be interesting to see it in a smaller lighter car. Like a Miata.

 

[neptunesfinest]

I think time/money would probably be better spent trying to hack or unlock the software and unleash the true potential of the current motors. The performance model can probably be uncorked for quite a bit more hp.

 

[ℬête Noire]

For all the work it would be interesting to see it in a smaller lighter car. Like a Miata.

If you could pull that off to create a functional vehicle OMG.

The Lotus Evora project I linked above is such a wacky project but not to that extent. Although it's about 800lb heavier than say a Miata ND, it's also only 3100lb and change with the ICE and drive train in and is going to have a lot more room in the frame.

Curiously that Blue Lightning project uses Volt battery packs, because they are capable of allowing a higher draw rate than the Model S packs and they are also easier to rearrange inside the model of the target car frame. Tesla packs are relatively large, fixed shape that's not going to fit well into a smaller vehicle than originally built for.

Past that you get into stuff that is very tailor built for doing one type of thing...and doing it to an mind boggling level. For example New Record: World's Quickest 1/4 Mile Electric Doorslammer

 

[PoitNarf]

I’m pretty sure the software is the true limiter on the maximum capable performance. If you were somehow able to put a more powerful motor in there it likely wouldn’t do any good unless you also could modify the software to take advantage of the more powerful motor. As @neptunesfinest mentioned above you would likely have greater success in just messing with the software to try and coax more power from the existing motor. You’re talking a LOT of time (and probably a lot money) to try and figure how to do what you are proposing which would result in a modified vehicle that I’m sure Tesla would refuse to provide service for. Doesn’t seem worth the trouble to me.

 

[ℬête Noire]

I’m pretty sure the software is the true limiter on the maximum capable performance. If you were somehow able to put a more powerful motor in there it likely wouldn’t do any good unless you also could modify the software to take advantage of the more powerful motor. As @neptunesfinest mentioned above you would likely have greater success in just messing with the software to try and coax more power from the existing motor. You’re talking a LOT of time (and probably a lot money) to try and figure how to do what you are proposing which would result in a modified vehicle that I’m sure Tesla would refuse to provide service for. Doesn’t seem worth the trouble to me.

The battery pack is also an imminent cap on power. The P isn't likely at the ceiling today but it'll be close. The ceiling also isn't exactly hard, what happens is at some point there is going to be an exponentially increasing amount of damage for each extra W you're drawing out of the battery. Where the P is right now is set at where Tesla felt confident they could set it without costing more than an average of roughly $10K per vehicle in warranty claims. A large portion of that would be the drive units but also undoubtedly battery degradation to the point of failure within 120,000 miles was a large factor.

As data rolls in over the months and years Tesla may become increasing confident they can lift the ceiling a bit more.

Of course if you figure out how to pwn the Model 3's system (via root?), which hasn't been done yet, you could turn up the power draw some roll the dice that you aren't going to cook something that now no longer has warranty on it. But the reality of the hardware limits isn't going to give you that much room. I'd be somewhat surprised if there was an extra 10% safety available.

 

[DrDabbles]

The battery pack is also an imminent cap on power. The P isn't likely at the ceiling today but it'll be close. The ceiling also isn't exactly hard, what happens is at some point there is going to be an exponentially increasing amount of damage for each extra W you're drawing out of the battery. Where the P is right now is set at where Tesla felt confident they could set it without costing more than an average of roughly $10K per vehicle in warranty claims. A large portion of that would be the drive units but also undoubtedly battery degradation to the point of failure within 120,000 miles was a large factor.

As data rolls in over the months and years Tesla may become increasing confident they can lift the ceiling a bit more.

Of course if you figure out how to pwn the Model 3's system (via root?), which hasn't been done yet, you could turn up the power draw some roll the dice that you aren't going to cook something that now no longer has warranty on it. But the reality of the hardware limits isn't going to give you that much room. I'd be somewhat surprised if there was an extra 10% safety available.

Further to your point, when Elon was asked about unlocking the P, he said it could "maybe" get a "little" more power, "but not much". I think the fact that the pack is below 400v is a big limit to get over.