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Has Tesla changed wording about full self driving capability?

Discussion in 'Autonomous Vehicles' started by Matias, Oct 29, 2016.

  1. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    IMG_0992.PNG I don't know if it has changed or not, but Tesla actually doesn't promise full self driving capability. It says "in almost all circumstances " That is rather wide disclaimer.
     
  2. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Not really. Would you rather have Tesla claim "in all circumstances"? That would be unwise and obviously impossible to achieve.
     
  3. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    SAE says "the full-time performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task under all roadway and environmental conditions that can be managed by a human driver"

    so level 5 does not mean car needs to be capable to handle every possible situation (which is of course impossible), but to handle all the situations that human can. Tesla's promise falls short from this.

    Don't get me wrong, it is good, that they don't promise too much. I just want to point out, that Tesla doesn't not promise Level 5 autonomous car.
     
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  4. zenmaster

    zenmaster Member

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    SAE has carefully distinguished what qualifies as a "Dynamic Driving Task". Level 5 notably does not cover strategic aspects of driving which are trivial, common, and sometimes necessary for a person to handle. Nonetheless a manufacturer may offer some strategic capability - it just has nothing to do with "level 5" autonomy.
     
  5. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    Anyway Tesla doesn't sell "full self driving" but "full self driving in almost all circumstances " and to me there is a difference and I hope buyers understand that.
     
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  6. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    I made a screenshot of the AP options the day after the announcement. It had the words "in almost all circumstances" then too, so I don't think the wording has changed.
     
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  7. zenmaster

    zenmaster Member

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    If you think about the sophistication of artificial intelligence required for a car to figure out appropriate action to take in all driving situations, the limitations agreed upon in the standard are not surprising.

    A level 5 car will drive better than most people, but only within the limited scope of conditions it can recognize. As most everday driving does not call for interaction with people or identification of situations which require strategic rerouting, a manufacturer can say their cars capabilities are sufficient most of the time - depending on road conditions.
     
  8. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    As a layman I'm still puzzled. Could you give me an example, where car can manage
    "the full-time performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task under all roadway and environmental conditions that can be managed by a human driver"

    but still is not capable to do things you described.
     
  9. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and Tesla does not state that what it describes as "Full Self Driving Capability" is SAE Level 5.

    So Tesla's "promise" is not Level 5. And Tesla is smart not to promise that.
     
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  10. zenmaster

    zenmaster Member

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    The key is in the qualification of "Dynamic Driving Task" which does not cover many necessary decision making abilities.
     
  11. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    #11 Tam, Oct 29, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2016
    I don't remember Tesla has ever classified its AP1 in SAE level when unveiling it.

    But this time for AP2, the following press folks seemed to report that he did:

    Elon Musk says Tesla will have fully autonomous cars by the end of 2017

    "Musk says this means his cars will have the potential for level 5 autonomy—the highest level, which requires zero interaction from the driver."

    Tesla Says All New Cars Have Full Self-Driving Tech

    "Musk said that all cars that the company is now producing have level 5 capability."
     
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  12. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    Never mind! The youtube link is still live and he did say "Level 5 Autonomy."

     
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  13. number12

    number12 Active Member

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    What about school zones. When flashing vs not?
     
  14. Sonny Daze

    Sonny Daze Member

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    #14 Sonny Daze, Oct 29, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2016
    upload_2016-10-29_19-26-15.png

    I don't understand. :oops:
     
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  15. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    flash is easy to detect and so is reading the sign to check the times vs the current time.
     
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  16. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    As if a range of driving abilities across humans is not evident.
     
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  17. Sonny Daze

    Sonny Daze Member

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    That's what I think every time I hear Elon say that the system will be multiple times safer than a human driver. Which human? :)
     
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  18. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    "Dynamic driving task" is where the wording is really loaded. If the situation is overly complex, it may not fall under the umbrella of a "dynamic driving task", and those are the situations where a human makes better decisions than even a sophisticated self driving AI.

    For example, deciding whether debris is worth hitting or serving/braking can be an extremely challenging computer vision and sensor fusion problem. Running over pine cones vs running over curved pieces of glass next to an accident site are very different but can seem very similar to computer vision. A garbage truck spewing paper confetti looks like chaff to LIDAR and cameras, but is almost certainly safe to drive through. Mirage versus water puddle on the ground versus flooded roads, or that time last year where an overturned truck spilled a load of tomatoes on the ground (which were safe to slowly drive through) versus watermelons (which are not safe to attempt to drive through without serious bumper damage)

    Of course, this is just driving. If we then add parking, that is an infinitely complex problem. Palo Alto has colored parking zone restrictions (e.g. no parking in coral zones on whatever day). San Francisco frequently has hand-written construction zone parking notes, or a stack of parking signs with various restricted times for street cleaning or permit parking. The natural language processing tech and handwriting recognition tech is simply not there within the next 1-2 years for parsing this stuff out reliably. We still live in an era where smartphone assistants can barely make recurring calendar appointments correctly, and let's not even begin to talk about how far Tesla lags behind the big dogs in terms of voice recognition / natural language commands.

    And none of this counts any level of nefarious exploitation of self driving cars.... I would expect a human to be substantially better than a computer at realizing it's being gamed by a road raging driver or some other evil agent.


    It is very difficult to imagine that even with Tesla Vision, within the next 1-2 years they can solve all these difficult corner cases better than a human. So I think the wording is apt in that for most driving situations, Tesla's solution may handle it safer than a human driver. But it's really hard to argue that human intelligence has no value-add and is imminently going to be superseded by a machine.
     
  19. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    Well said. I've pretty much resigned myself to the notion that a self-driving car is only going to be the hands down superior choice when the other car is also self-driving.
     
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  20. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    From a personal POV, I keep asking myself how I am going to refrain from becoming a distracted, poorer driver as driver assist technology improves. It just seems way too easy to transfer driver responsibility to the car rather than becoming more than the sum of the parts, or at least the sum of the parts.
     

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