Have you received FSD you paid for?

[SunCharged]

I still don't understand this weird logic.

Are you saying because Tesla sold "X" for "Y" dollars on 1/1/2019 - they can never ever change that order page ?

Unless they tell people who bought before the change that their sales order / contract is no longer valid, they aren't moving any goalposts.

ps : You can say they moved goalposts from investor perspective, but investors are actually happier that they changed the language.

I’ll try to make this as simple as possible. Starting in 2016 when the model 3 was first introduced and reservations were made, the car was introduced on stage as having all of the necessary hardware to be a full self driving vehicle.

Then it turns out those early model 3s, like my 2018, needed HW3.0 because the 2.5 that came on the car could not handle full self driving.

So the car needed an upgrade to be full self driving that had to be bought despite the promised FSD capability. Then you needed a certain safety score to use FSD beta. Then FSD isn’t ready year after year after year….. who knows if HW3.0 is actually enough to make a model 3 a full self driving vehicle.

 

[SunCharged]

In my opinion the goal posts have not changed. What was listed on the order page pre 3/2019 is still listed as a description of FSD on Autopilot | Tesla

If you paid for FSD Capability in 2022, you are also being promised L4 capability as listed below on this page

View attachment 800091

Are you suggesting that a Tesla with FSD can take you from you house and park itself right now after you step out as described in that graphic?

 

[momo3605]

Are you suggesting that a Tesla with FSD can take you from you house and park itself right now after you step out as described in that graphic?

No I’m suggesting that Tesla’s marketing is deceptive. Also I don’t understand why the Tesla apologists keep saying that the language post 2019 proves that you’re only promised L2 driving assist. The language on that site is exactly the same as it was in 2016.

Either we should get all HW upgrades to reach the state in the graphic or Tesla and Elon should suffer consequences of misleading customers.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I still don't understand this weird logic.

Are you saying because Tesla sold "X" for "Y" dollars on 1/1/2019 - they can never ever change that order page ?

Unless they tell people who bought before the change that their sales order / contract is no longer valid, they aren't moving any goalposts.

ps : You can say they moved goalposts from investor perspective, but investors are actually happier that they changed the language.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Any company is free to change promised capabilities for new customers as long as they clearly communicate the change. So no one is buying the product is expecting the previously promised capabilities.

It's a good idea to breakdown what goal post is what.

Tesla Cost/Liability that are of concern to investors -> two goal post differentiated by date where the later one reduced Tesla exposure
Tesla Engineering -> Some unknown goal post based on internal plans.
Tesla Customer -> The lack of communication from Tesla means we really have no idea which goal post we should be expecting. There is no evidence that the old goal post has any relevancy anymore. We'll know more in a year or so, but for now we only know Tesla is marching to the newer goal post.

 

[EVNow]

So the car needed an upgrade to be full self driving that had to be bought despite the promised FSD capability. Then you needed a certain safety score to use FSD beta. Then FSD isn’t ready year after year after year….. who knows if HW3.0 is actually enough to make a model 3 a full self driving vehicle.

I've the same Model 3.

You didn't have to pay to upgrade HW 2.5 to HW 3.0, if you had bought FSD already.

FSD Beta Early Access is a privilege - you are basically testing the software. Ofcourse they will have some restrictions - I think mostly because of regulators.

FSD isn't ready - year after year - because its cutting edge and nobody has cracked it yet. Just like Fusion hasn't been ready - year after year - for last 70 years. This isn't like your Startbucks order that is getting delayed.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

FSD isn't ready - year after year - because its cutting edge and nobody has cracked it yet.

That would be ok if Tesla would refund FSD purchases on request.

Now that Tesla gives a 48h return window (after purchase), but the delivery takes (undefined number of) years, the practice just is not acceptable. Unfortunately consumers do no have an easy way of holding Tesla accountable: arbitration or small courts are too much of a hassle for the most customers.

 

[Daniel in SD]

arbitration

I'm surprised no one has tried arbitration who bought it when "automatic driving on city streets" was coming "later this year."
Now it's "autosteer on city streets" and "coming soon" so maybe people have been getting refunds but are bound by non-disclosures...

 

[am_dmd]

FSD = scam of the century.

 

[Mark II]

In his case, he is simply throwing money away every month for nothing. He should cancel his subscription and wait for FSD beta to be released to all FSD subscribers.

In his case, he is simply throwing money away every month for nothing. He should cancel his subscription and wait for FSD beta to be released to all FSD subscribers.

Problem is Elon keeps saying it will be released broadly next week, or if you achieve the safety score of 99+ over 7 days you will get it. etc.

I am worried I miss the chance, and it closes again. Because that is the reality. More open and honest communication from Tesla would make a world of difference.

They could simply state, "You have achieved a 100 score over 7 days and are now permanently in the FSD beta queue. We currently don't want more testers because we fear the negative press if you crash. For now feel free to unsubscribe until you get notified by us that you are receiving the FSD Beta Update, at which point you need to re-subscribe to activate, however you will not loose your place in the queue.". I would actually be happy with that.

 

[Mark II]

That's what your heart is paying $99 month for.

What you're actually paying for is Traffic light and sign response.

Are you not getting $99/month enjoyment out of the chime on green? It might or might not be your green.
Are you not enjoying the phantom braking at yellow blinking lights?
Is it not a blissful experience wondering if your car will indeed detect that upcoming stop sign?
Are you not amusing yourself by telling your car that the light ahead is green and giving it the go-ahead to go?

Elon promises the subscription price will go up when FSD Beta has its general release which means you gotta check out traffic light response now when its cheap.

As to the FSD beta you'll get that eventually, but it will still be beta. So no worries on missing out on the beta action. There will still be plenty of bugs to report about into the ether.

This does make me wonder if anyone of us have a shrink. What would he or she even say to "I'm paying $100 a month to drive very slowly all the time". Would you even admit that to the shrink? This is a safe space so we understand what compels you. You're likely not alone, and thousands of people are doing the exact same thing with the same hope.

We get the need despite the financial nuttiness.

I would agree, except that when I use autopilot on city streets, aka Traffic Light and sign response, it messes up my safety score. I need to intervene often, and by that time I am going too fast and end up with a hard braking event, aggressive turning, or worst of all, an FCW. I can never use autopilot on city streets if I have any hope of keeping safety score at 99. I wish for 100, unfortunately that darn FCW sticks around for an entire month.

 

[Yelobird]

I would agree, except that when I use autopilot on city streets, aka Traffic Light and sign response, it messes up my safety score. I need to intervene often, and by that time I am going too fast and end up with a hard braking event, aggressive turning, or worst of all, an FCW. I can never use autopilot on city streets if I have any hope of keeping safety score at 99. I wish for 100, unfortunately that darn FCW sticks around for an entire month.

Good. Your not supposed to use AP on city streets.

 

[TresLA]

In 2018 I bought a full FSD capable car, however I did not pay for the FSD "software" upgrade. Then in Dec 2021 I wanted to subscribe to FSD, however I had to pay $1000 to make my car FSD capable before I could enable the subscription. So here I am paying to add FSD hardware to a car that was sold as having FSD capable hardware when I bought it.

As for the subscription, I pay $100 a month for FSD, have a safety score ranging between 99 and 100 since beginning of January, yet I don't have FSD. So what am I paying for? I already had all the other features, such as summon, NOA, etc., because I payed for EAP in 2018.

In summary, I paid an additional $1000 to make my FSD capable car FSD capable, and I am paying another $100 month to drive very slowly, all the time, in the hopes that I eventually get what I am paying for!!

We can’t seem to make it more clear, but the language had confused people and continued to perpetuate misunderstandings. Tesla has only sold EAP, FSD Capability, and had an early limited release (not sold) FSD beta.

Perhaps one more time of explaining will help: Imagine if you paid for everything up front like we did (instead of subscribing or paying later). Tesla never claimed to sell FSD. We understood that Tesla was selling features to come in the future and locking in the price we paid ($3k & $5k for a total of $8k for EAP and FSD Capability). FSD is what is (and was always) promised to come. It has never been sold yet. EAP and FSD Capability are what have been sold.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Good. Your not supposed to use AP on city streets.

Then please explain to us how we can use Traffic Light and Stop sign response.

 

[TresLA]

I’ll try to make this as simple as possible. Starting in 2016 when the model 3 was first introduced and reservations were made, the car was introduced on stage as having all of the necessary hardware to be a full self driving vehicle.

Then it turns out those early model 3s, like my 2018, needed HW3.0 because the 2.5 that came on the car could not handle full self driving.

So the car needed an upgrade to be full self driving that had to be bought despite the promised FSD capability. Then you needed a certain safety score to use FSD beta. Then FSD isn’t ready year after year after year….. who knows if HW3.0 is actually enough to make a model 3 a full self driving vehicle.

This is some parts true and an important part false. I know because we are in the same boat and bought in early 2018 when the car came with HW2.5 and I have the delivery docs to prove it. We had to purchase FSD Capability (again, not sure how to explain it more clearly that the website then and now did NOT sell FSD), but that included (was separately paying for) an upgrade to HW3 when it was available (a promise that Tesla fulfilled in early 2020 for us). The hardware didn't cost anymore before nor after HW3 release. Your car either came with it or got it later for the same software upgrade price.

 

[pilotSteve]

We can’t seem to make it more clear, but the language had confused people and continued to perpetuate misunderstandings. Tesla has only sold EAP, FSD Capability, and had an early limited release (not sold) FSD beta.

Perhaps one more time of explaining will help: Imagine if you paid for everything up front like we did (instead of subscribing or paying later). Tesla never claimed to sell FSD. We understood that Tesla was selling features to come in the future and locking in the price we paid ($3k & $5k for a total of $8k for EAP and FSD Capability). FSD is what is (and was always) promised to come. It has never been sold yet. EAP and FSD Capability are what have been sold.

Wait…..you can’t even get the beta unless you purchased FSD! What do you mean “not sold”?? Are you claiming some people get to test FSD without having purchased it???

 

[TresLA]

Then please explain to us how we can use Traffic Light and Stop sign response.

I used AP on surface streets all the time just fine and it never affected my safety score, just like Tesla states.

 

[TresLA]

Wait…..you can’t even get the beta unless you purchased FSD! What do you mean “not sold”??

This is the language mixup issue we keep trying to tell you for years now. FSD has never been sold (at least since I’ve been tracking since 2017 or so). Look at the marketing materials and they say FSD Capability. That is what has been sold (and back then Enhanced AP).

 

[Bouba]

It never was up for debate. It just wasn’t clearly understood. FSD Capability is what has always been sold, not FSD. For anyone expecting FSD with the subscription or the one time purchase, it wasn’t Tesla that misinformed them. FSD beta was never communicated as what we paid for, no matter when one purchased/subscribed.

I agree...when I bought my vacuum cleaner it didn’t have a true vacuum...that hasn’t been invented yet...hell, it didn’t even clean itself...I had to do the cleaning myself!
Are Tesla owners so easily duped? I think not

 

[t3sl4drvr]

I'm surprised no one has tried arbitration who bought it when "automatic driving on city streets" was coming "later this year."

How would you know that?

 

[EVNow]

Now that Tesla gives a 48h return window (after purchase), but the delivery takes (undefined number of) years, the practice just is not acceptable.

Then don't buy it - or if you think its so egregious - sue. Not sure what's the point of whining here

ps : I mean .... minimal homework would definitely show how delayed FSD has been for any prospective buyers. So, anyone buying now should already know to expect delays.