How can the established car companies fail so badly with EV?

[MontyFloyd]

I came across this WIRED article that proclaimed in big letters:

How GM Beat Tesla to the First True Mass-Market Electric Car​

and they are talking about the

GM BOLT!​

If you thought it might be an old article, you are correct, as in from February 2016.

Naturally is mentioned the catastrophic mistake GM made of investing a billion $ in the EV1 only to turn it into landfill and delete all its research and acquiring a bad reputation, and then as insult watch Toyota make a highly successful Prius that catapulted Toyota to top of the automotive mountain.

However it seems like Toyota is now making a serious mistake with its very late, just announced 2022 bZ4x , which apparently is also the same car that Subaru is going to make, the Solterra.

Lets not forget the first BEV that actually survived and in production today, the Nissan Leaf. A very early BEV, that is long overshadowed by new BEV's, not just Tesla.
Then Ford made and BEV Ford Focus Electric, and before that to compete with the EV1 the Ford Ranger EV.
The list is very long and sometimes surprising.

Hybrids plainly showed to companies the desire for more fuel efficient cars, and when Plug-In came along and its success (hello, Volt) it must have been daylight obvious that BEV was a big market.

So why was it the major car companies failed to get the cars and customers that an upstart company founded by guy whos hobbies is rockets take off like one?

 

[KJD]

So why was it the major car companies failed to get the cars and customers that an upstart company founded by guy whos hobbies is rockets take off like one?

Very simple. The Tesla Model S was the first EV that was a drivers car. It was actually fun to drive and therefor a smashing success.

I also owned a Prius and a Leaf at different times. Yes they were fuel efficient and they were also painful slow and it was like punishment for being green to drive one.

Tesla number 4 is for my wife and we pick it up next Saturday.

 

[Thp3]

So why was it the major car companies failed to get the cars and customers that an upstart company founded by guy whos hobbies is rockets take off like one?

There are many answers to this question. I think the major answer is that Tesla is seriously vertically integrated in parts and subsystems. Tesla makes batteries, car seats, cpu chips, specialized glass and body components and fully networked controls systems with state of the art user interfaces.

The other manufacturers outsource much of their car‘s components. Musk once called this practice “catalog engineering”. So integration and updating the cars takes a long time for traditional manufacturer since it requires third party parts and coordination.

Unfortunately, these practices seem to be in the “DNA” of the traditional manufacturers cultures and manufacturing plants. This could cause the demise of all traditional vehicle manufacturers.

 

[GtiMart]

Related to the previous post, integration and software. Look for articles that explain why the VW ID.3 was so long in limbo, with cars sitting in parking lots unable to be delivered. A huge software nightmare. Even after they started delivering them, they've had months of hiccups as they tried to fix what was delivered. I'm not even sure they're completely out of it yet.
I think traditional car companies are hardware-based and have underestimated the complexity of a real-time distributed onboard software system. They have hired software developers but no one has the prior experience.

In contrast, it seems like Tesla have developed an expertise in that field over many years (they started in 2003) to get where they are now. They have a head start in a new field. Even Tesla have software issues... they have an incomplete set of unit tests and integration tests, which means they constantly introduce bugs in new software versions. They have a hard time delivering features that upper management (Elon) state will be ready in 2 weeks. They are struggling with FSD. Don't get me wrong, these things are extremely complex problems. Everyone underestimates them, including people that have done software for a long while. Tesla are not great (yet) but they are better than the competition at this.

 

[MontyFloyd]

Very simple. The Tesla Model S was the first EV that was a drivers car. It was actually fun to drive and therefor a smashing success.

Partially agree, however I think the major motivator is getting off fuel.

I also owned a Prius and a Leaf at different times. Yes they were fuel efficient and they were also painful slow and it was like punishment for being green to drive one.

Again, a good drive is not a primary factor to get such. Was it?

Tesla number 4 is for my wife and we pick it up next Saturday.

Good for wife! Mine wants to check out BEV before switching,

There are many answers to this question. I think the major answer is that Tesla is seriously vertically integrated in parts and subsystems. Tesla makes batteries, car seats, cpu chips, specialized glass and body components and fully networked controls systems with state of the art user interfaces.

The other manufacturers outsource much of their car‘s components. Musk once called this practice “catalog engineering”. So integration and updating the cars takes a long time for traditional manufacturer since it requires third party parts and coordination.

Unfortunately, these practices seem to be in the “DNA” of the traditional manufacturers cultures and manufacturing plants. This could cause the demise of all traditional vehicle manufacturers.

Yes, that is a major factor, as also Sandy points out many times.
While the body and interior may be slow to transition, the power plant should not be. Perhaps the old update cycles in years, while Tesla does updates several times a year (like Space X).

When I looked at Leaf in 2011 or 2012, I was very disappointed at the location of the direction control placed right were the ICE shifter would be. People getting in a BEV crave something new, not look like something old. That shifter probably killed the sale to me right there (and limited knowledge by the sales man).

SO is that the simple answer why traditional companies are so bad? They are trapped in the ancient paradigm of auto mfg?

 

[MontyFloyd]

I think traditional car companies are hardware-based and have underestimated the complexity of a real-time distributed onboard software system. They have hired software developers but no one has the prior experience.

This is supported by what the GM people said and reported in above article, quoted below:

New systems, from electromagnetics for the motors to onboard and off-board charging, each came with its own learning curve. The engineers didn’t have established tests to follow. Just turning on the car required finding the perfect sequence of electrical signals from more than a dozen modules. “Oh my God, it took us forever to get the first Volt to start,” Fletcher says.

I had a changed to see the then new Ford Sync work in a truck in November 2010, and I just though it was poor interface and a waste of time to use.
Today our 2016 Civic has not one, but 2 display screens (a communication related touch panel for one, the other is button control engine status display). It is worse UI than Windows is (says a lot).

Then the hack in the Jeep that allowed people to remotely drive the car with a smart phone.

Yeah, that is certainly a key reason why industry are doing so poorly in transition to EV.
I imagine in that regard Tesla will be years ahead of the rest of the industry, as they realize they need to look at future cars more like an iPhone with wheels.

 

[roblab]

Tesla number 4 is for my wife and we pick it up next Saturday.

Tesla #4 has been sitting in the garage for a couple years now. Yes, it is my wife's driver, and she loves it. I just sold #2 to my brother.

 

[animorph]

The traditionals didn't want to understand electric cars. They wanted to keep producing the same thing forever. They had already won the game. Their future profits depended on killing off Tesla (and the EV-1).

Regarding parts outsourcing, I have read the the traditional car companies were placing their major emphasis on proprietary engines. Electric cars make that completely worthless! Again, they need to kill off electrics or at the very least delay adoption as long as possible in order to stretch out their profitability. How much intellectual property did the traditionals have invested in non-ICE design and technology?

Any industry that has to sell a product with the line "Subaru is love" has jumped the shark trying to differentiate their products. Old, stale thinking.