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How long does a Powerwall support a home during a power outage?

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Hi,

All of us in Northern California are aware that power is no longer something we can take for granted. If a home has a Powerwall how long can it provide power for basic support like minimal lighting, fridge, fans for furnace?

Thanks.

I can only give you my experience as follows: We have a 7.8 kW solar array connected with two Tesla Powerwall 2s. During the recent PG&E blackouts here in Sonoma County, and the Kincade fire, our system performed flawlessly. It covered everything we needed including some AC load, entire 1600 sq ft home needs, and everything but charging our two Teslas. [NOTE: We heeded Tesla's warning and charged our cars to 90% prior to each blackout.] We probably could've partially charged our Model S and Model 3 by timing it correctly during the day. If the battery is mostly charged, the system modulates how much electricity that comes from the solar array by partially shutting down one or two of the inverters to prevent overcharging of the Powerwalls. As a result, there are times in the morning to mid-day when excess power is available, although we chose not to charge our cars. We could have driven about 10 miles to the nearest supercharger, if necessary, when needing a charge. The SpC remained in operation throughout.

Attached is a screenshot from the Tesla app showing the backup performance for the last few months. As far as I am concerned, getting the Powerwalls was a great decision for use as a backup alone, much less what it does to lower our use of grid power as well.

upload_2019-11-1_11-35-58.png
 
As @miimura points out, it's pretty easy to flip the main breaker. That effectively takes the house "off-grid". We weren't cutting power lines or anything. The house solar and Powerwalls are isolated and don't pose any danger to utility workers.

If you have a Powerwall installed, codes require that the grid be switched off automatically by the system. That gateway switch, as Tesla calls it I think, is required as part of the install of the Powerwalls. It was in my locality anyway, for the exact reasons of safety as you describe. What if you aren't home to shut it off from the grid when the power failure occurs?
 
Morrisonhiker:
Does that mean that your solar/powerwall system does not utilize net metering and does not send any electricity to the grid?

We do have net metering, but when disconnected from the grid, we did not send any solar production back to the grid.

If you have a Powerwall installed, codes require that the grid be switched off automatically by the system. That gateway switch, as Tesla calls it I think, is required as part of the install of the Powerwalls. It
was in my locality anyway, for the exact reasons of safety as you describe. What if you aren't home to shut it off from the grid when the power failure occurs?

Yes, it's automatic. There's no need to do anything manually in a regular grid outage. We were simulating a grid outage for 200 hours by manually flipping the main breaker. The Powerwalls then took over automatically and instantly powered the house for 200+ hours.
 
I disconnected my 2 UPS as they aren't needed with a powerwall.

I am not that brave. I plan on leaving my USPs in place as a secondary battery. Hopefully they will never be used after getting a PowerWall. But in addition to providing power, the UPS will also communicate with the NAS and computers to cause them to perform orderly shutdowns should the state of the UPS battery get low.
 
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We live in Michigan so we rarely see the sun during the winter. And we installed a gas-powered automatic whole house backup generator as backup to our electric utility.

Am I correct in assuming that because of our cloudy winters, it would not be possible to justify a solar system? We pay 10-12 cents/kWh.
 
Here in Australia it's not possible to use batteries during power outages!
The excuse is that it's impossible to have batteries in parallel with the mains so that they take over when the mains stop being live, and that it's dangerous because linesmen could be at risk with backflow.
So now, all you folks in the USA, you know it doesn't work! <g>.
 
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We were out for 96 hours and we have 2 powerwalls. We have solar so we never lost power even though all my neighbors were out. I suggest you add solar if you are considering powerwalls.

Some people said when the power was out, the power from solar would be out also because it is connected to the grid. Can you clarify your scenario that if you have solar and powerwall, you wouldn't be affected by the outage? Does the solar replenish the powerwall continuously without going through the grid?
 
I disconnected my 2 UPS as they aren't needed with a powerwall.
If the Powerwalls are not already discharging when the power goes out, there is up to a second delay before power is restored.

I highly recommend having a small UPS on Computers, cable modems, routers, DVRs, etc. Anything you don't want to hard reboot. One UPS is enough for several devices, since it only has to last 1-2 seconds max.

I've added this one to my security camera NVR and a few other devices I don't want to reboot: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004OR0V2C
 
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Some people said when the power was out, the power from solar would be out also because it is connected to the grid. Can you clarify your scenario that if you have solar and powerwall, you wouldn't be affected by the outage? Does the solar replenish the powerwall continuously without going through the grid?
The Powerwall gateway disconnects your house from the gird in a power outage, then simulates a grid inside your house so the solar panels continue to produce power.

During an outage, the solar powers your house and charges the batteries during the day, and the batteries power the house when there is not enough solar to do so.
 
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Here in Australia it's not possible to use batteries during power outages!
The excuse is that it's impossible to have batteries in parallel with the mains so that they take over when the mains stop being live, and that it's dangerous because linesmen could be at risk with backflow.
So now, all you folks in the USA, you know it doesn't work! <g>.
I'm surprised they don't allow you to disconnect from the grid an run the house from solar and batteries, as we do in the US. That removes the risk to linesmen.
 
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Here in Australia it's not possible to use batteries during power outages!
The excuse is that it's impossible to have batteries in parallel with the mains so that they take over when the mains stop being live, and that it's dangerous because linesmen could be at risk with backflow.
So now, all you folks in the USA, you know it doesn't work! <g>.

Can you have batteries that provide power if you flip a switch to disconnect the home from the grid prior to powering the home from the batteries?
 
Hmm. I am considering eliminating the UPS (use surge protector instead) for my networking closet for the reason they are unneeded. Desktop computer didn't blink and no clocks didn't need to be reset. Anyone else fortunate as me or am I being too optimistic?
Seamless power transition is not guaranteed, and is usually only the case if the Powerwalls were already discharging when the power was lost. There are situations when it can take a second or two to restore power to the house.

I'd leave a UPS on anything you don't want to loose power to for a up to 2 seconds. For me that includes the network closet, computers, DVRs, and home automation server.
 
Seamless power transition is not guaranteed, and is usually only the case if the Powerwalls were already discharging when the power was lost. There are situations when it can take a second or two to restore power to the house.

I'd leave a UPS on anything you don't want to loose power to for a up to 2 seconds. For me that includes the network closet, computers, DVRs, and home automation server.

+1 to all of this. Switching from utility to battery can take as much as a few seconds I keep all of my sensitive electronics on UPS even with the Powerwall.
 
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Attached is a screenshot from the Tesla app showing the backup performance for the last few months. As far as I am concerned, getting the Powerwalls was a great decision for use as a backup alone, much less what it does to lower our use of grid power as well.

View attachment 472111
I noticed you have several outages that are less than 5 minutes long. We never have any outages listed unless they are at least 5 minutes long. Do you know what version of the gateway hardware you have? How about your firmware version?
 
I noticed you have several outages that are less than 5 minutes long. We never have any outages listed unless they are at least 5 minutes long. Do you know what version of the gateway hardware you have? How about your firmware version?

Just as another data point I've had a few "outages" for less than 5 minutes over the last 9 months:

September 13 - 2 seconds
June 17 - 2 seconds

The rest (12) are all 5 minutes or longer. Some of those 12 were me testing outage scenarios, out utility isn't that terrible ;)
 
Each Powerwall 2 will charge at a maximum rate of 5kW.

As the PW nears 100% its draw starts to ramp-down (a requirement in Lithium battery charging), this is why the PWs start to throttle/disable solar when the grid is down

Each PW stores around 13kWh[*],

[*] Because of efficiency loss in charging/discharging, it probably takes more like 15kW/PW to go from totally-empty to fully-charged.

So 2 powerwalls will consume 10kw?

My expectation was that I would lose 10% of what I normally generate as excess power through return trip through the powerwall. Does that sound right? Generate 15 to get 13 put back in the battery in your post example is closer to 15% in losses.

So do the panels “throttle back” or merely cycle on and off entirely? I have a microinverter for each of the 24 panels. Is powerwall smart enough time turn them off one at a time?

I was planning to leave the ovens, steam shower and bathroom floor heater out of the backup list. No A/C, gas water heater, dryer, stove. Might ask them to wire for an A/C in case there is one in our further.

individual breakers we are backing up sum to over 500 Amps. We are on a 200 amp service. There is some funky math related to setting up a “partial backup” that allows this to happen. Permit approved. Instal next week.

Any tips? or “if I did it again, I would ....” advice?

thanks
 
Some people said when the power was out, the power from solar would be out also because it is connected to the grid. Can you clarify your scenario that if you have solar and powerwall, you wouldn't be affected by the outage? Does the solar replenish the powerwall continuously without going through the grid?

When you have solar WITHOUT a powerwall, its definitely out. When you have a powerwall, its connected in such a way that it provides power to your house and becomes a little "micro grid" with your solar replenishing the powerwall, as long as there is enough solar to replenish your powerwall and power your house during the day.

EDIT: sorry I see someone already answered this... should have read to the end of the thread before hitting "reply".
 
So do the panels “throttle back” or merely cycle on and off entirely? I have a microinverter for each of the 24 panels. Is powerwall smart enough time turn them off one at a time?

I was planning to leave the ovens, steam shower and bathroom floor heater out of the backup list. No A/C, gas water heater, dryer, stove. Might ask them to wire for an A/C in case there is one in our further.

Newer inverters have the capability to ramp down production if configured to do so. SolarEdge inverters all it "P(F) Power Frequency" (https://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/application_note_power_control_configuration.pdf, page 6) and my Enphase IQ6 microinverters call it "curtailment" or "ramp down" (https://enphase.com/sites/default/f...Considerations-AC-Coupling-Micros-Battery.pdf, page 6). As @woferry mentioned the Powerwall will slowly increase the microgrid frequency as the battery reaches it's capacity and the solar inverters will detect this and ramp down their production.

I have a single Powerwall, 8.55kw PV array, and have left off the A/C, dryer, electric oven, and 240v EV charging (can still charge on 120v from the solar if I wanted to in an outage). Tankless gas water heater use very little power so do consider leaving that on. In fact during an outage before I had the Powerwall I actually used my computer UPS, a little CyberPower unit, to power our tankless gas water heater. Didn't have any lights for the shower but it was nice and warm!
 
The Power Wall was designed for a normal grid that has an occasional outage. As a professional engineer I have been looking at long term outages. Even here in Austin Texas there is a type of outage that could cause the power to be off for months. So I have been thinking about the emergency aspects of using solar panels and our Teslas for backup power during emergencies. This is for the grid being down.

Suppose our Tesla wall charger which is usually 40 amps at 240 volts was replaced by a special type of inverter in which it can take power directly from solar panels (they are not wired into the home) and ties to the EV and charges the Tesla battery. It does this charging without the power wall battery. The inverter operates directly from the solar panels to the EV battery. The inverter communicates through the cable that plugs into the car to coordinate the amps charge rate. This will insure the home owner will always have power to drive their EV.

But this system can do the power wall function without the power wall. When the grid is down the power can flow from the car back through the cable into the inverter box and back into the homeowners home. The homeowner is now responsible for watching the charge on their EV and not running the car charge too low. The solar panels need to be at least 10 kW capacity to charge the car and have some energy left over to run something in the house like a refrigerator and maybe a couple of lights, but certainly not the AC for the home. Remember this is an emergency setting.

There are several advantages of this:
1) the solar panels only charge the EV so permitting is simpler.
2) power for the home only comes from the EV battery and only when the grid is down.
3) the cost of this is lower than the power wall by avoiding the need for a battery for the power wall.
4) The EV can serve up to 10 kW peak load for a while and the owner uses the charge state of the EV to know how much energy is left.
5) This system is more easily installed during the emergency than trying to wire in a power wall during the emergency since the wiring is entirely to the inverter box that replaces the wall mounted charging unit we currently own.
6) I can install this system because it gets around Austin's stringent rules for solar panels whereas the power wall installation does not.
7) this lower cost scheme would allow Tesla to sell more solar panels more quickly to help those in distress.

Gene Preston PE PhD www.egpreston.com