Krugerrand
Meow
People watching 'the reveal months later' are not the same people 'lin(ing) up outside of galleries/stores to put down a reservation on a car...' so my point and definition of 'mainstream buyers' stands.
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People watching 'the reveal months later' are not the same people 'lin(ing) up outside of galleries/stores to put down a reservation on a car...' so my point and definition of 'mainstream buyers' stands.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I agree that people watching the reveal months later and those lining up outside the stores and galleries are not the same kind of buyer. In fact, that was the point I was making. You had quoted anticitizen as follows, and then written:
I responded with:
And then you wrote what I quoted above:
You are making my point for me, and invalidating your original point which was that Tesla didn't need to worry about disappointing the mainstream buyers because it wasn't the mainstream buyers who were lining up outside stores to buy the cars. You have now agreed that you would consider people watching the video of the reveal months later mainstream buyers. My point is that they are likely to see and hear the same information about the car being available in June 2017, and are likely to be disappointed if Tesla then isn't able to deliver by that date.
Chickenlittle
Banned
i believe the premise you state is not correct. "it seems to me that all the negative comments are not disputed" that does not mean they are correct. there is so much negativity toward tesla that it is impossible to dispute them all. i am encouraged that many are being recycled indicating that they are running out (probably overly optimistic). even the comments of the model X reveal were previously mentioned in prior posts and no longer pursued until it was recycled. you cannot spend your life trying to correct statements. there is a group that believe that they are "entitled" because they were early adopters or investors (i am both by the way). some expect special access to the leadership of tesla or special treatment (such as moved ahead of others for test drive at event). i do not believe this is warranted. i believe that every potential customer deserved the same treatment. i would not be surprised if some are even upset not to be offered a founders car.
I believe the root of the problem is that Tesla does not have an effective Chief Communications Officer (or perhaps does not have an *empowered* Chief Communications Officer -- if the CEO ignores the communications officer's advice, there's nothing the communications officer can do.). Elon has simply underestimated the importance of "human factors". Dammit, hire a humanities major! I'm quite serious.
I'm actually guessing "not empowered". Sproule actually quit quite suddenly to join Aston Martin. Musk may be ignoring good advice from his communications officers, which may explain why they keep quitting.
I'm actually guessing "not empowered". Sproule actually quit quite suddenly to join Aston Martin. Musk may be ignoring good advice from his communications officers, which may explain why they keep quitting.
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Generally, I don't agree that Tesla has alienated their most loyal customers, but this seems like a relevant place to discuss how Tesla decided to price gouge Norwegian/European Model X signature customers.
In the US, a Model X signature costs 132,000 USD. So, assuming a generous exchange rate of 8.9 NOK/USD, the price should be 1,174,800 NOK. The actual price will be 1,238,700. This means that Tesla has tacked on another 63,900 NOK, or about 7,400 USD. Now, you might argue that this money will cover the extra costs of modifications for the European market, but that's not it. The base 70D will use an exchange rate of 8.86, and the P90D will use an exchange rate of 8.77, so an exchange rate of 8.9 provides ample room for the additional costs.
The above is a good example of how Tesla sometimes really doesn't take care of their customers. The European Signature Model X reservation holders from 2012 gave Tesla a ~38,000 USD loan for 4 years, and Tesla rewards them by charging them another 7,400 USD extra compared to US Model X Signatures. And about 2000 USD more than the general production reservation holders. (In the mean time, the value of the reservation amount has dropped to about 26,400 USD, due to the exchange rate, so Tesla pocketed another 11,600 USD in currency gains.)
I'm not a Signature Model X reservation holder, but if I were, I would have a really bad taste in my mouth. Tesla can get away with it because they're the only party in town, but I think Tesla should aspire to do better.
In the US, a Model X signature costs 132,000 USD. So, assuming a generous exchange rate of 8.9 NOK/USD, the price should be 1,174,800 NOK. The actual price will be 1,238,700. This means that Tesla has tacked on another 63,900 NOK, or about 7,400 USD. Now, you might argue that this money will cover the extra costs of modifications for the European market, but that's not it. The base 70D will use an exchange rate of 8.86, and the P90D will use an exchange rate of 8.77, so an exchange rate of 8.9 provides ample room for the additional costs.
The above is a good example of how Tesla sometimes really doesn't take care of their customers. The European Signature Model X reservation holders from 2012 gave Tesla a ~38,000 USD loan for 4 years, and Tesla rewards them by charging them another 7,400 USD extra compared to US Model X Signatures. And about 2000 USD more than the general production reservation holders. (In the mean time, the value of the reservation amount has dropped to about 26,400 USD, due to the exchange rate, so Tesla pocketed another 11,600 USD in currency gains.)
I'm not a Signature Model X reservation holder, but if I were, I would have a really bad taste in my mouth. Tesla can get away with it because they're the only party in town, but I think Tesla should aspire to do better.
With or without VAT? $132,000 is without sales tax. So, for example, if you live in San Francisco the price would be $132,000 * 0.0875 = $143,550 or $11,550 over the list $132,000. If you lived in Sarasota county Florida then it would be 6% state tax + 1% county tax or an extra $9,240.
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There is no VAT on BEVs. Though there is a 2,400 NOK fee that goes into a "cash for clunkers"-type program. It is included in the pricing for the 70D and P90D.
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And yet, any company that treats it's customers badly will trend towards failure.
Asking price is not and never was a bad treatment, it is a price of doing business in a certain country.
You don't like the price? Thank your government.
Again, this has nothing to do with the cost of doing business. If it were, it would be reflected in the pricing for the general production 70D and P90D. Tesla just decided to add a premium to the Signatures in Europe.
You don't know what you don't know.
Accusing anyone of anything without insight into whys and whats says plenty about the accuser and nothing about the accused.
If you are sure into your own thesis of:
To put it simply: put up or shut up.
Accusing anyone of anything without insight into whys and whats says plenty about the accuser and nothing about the accused.
If you are sure into your own thesis of:
you have a superb opportunity of massive earnings by shorting the stock.
To put it simply: put up or shut up.
I own 800 shares in TSLA. In part because I believe Tesla can (and will) get better at doing business. The issue I brought up is one area where there is a substantial potential for improvement.
Could it be that Tesla is pricing X in anticipation of different exchange rate in the future, at the time of delivery?
The current exchange rate is 8.57, graph below.
Assuming price in USD 132,000, that translates into NOK 1,131,249 at the current rate, if it were straightforward conversion, ie there are no local taxes and extra charges included in the price.
The car will be delivered say a year later and the revenue will be collected at the time of delivery. The expectation for the exchange rate move in that period is further NOK depreciation.
Perhaps Tesla is pricing their car in different markets in such a way to take account of anticipated currency moves, so they do not give it away in some markets due to local currency drops.
Assuming straightforward conversion, no extra charges, the price of NOK 1,238,700 anticipates the conversion rate of 9.38 at the time of delivery.
I make (wrong) assumptions about no local extra charges. It is not too difficult to do more detailed and correct calculations that take into account local extra charges, but I do not know what these extra charges are, so I am simplifying in order to illustrate the principle.
Tesla should be buying a currency hedge when the car is confirmed. And I can imagine that the cost of this hedge might take into account the expectation of a worse exchange rate in ~June.
However, this doesn't explain the discrepency between a Signature P90D and a general production P90D. They will likely be delivered fairly close together, and yet, the Sig uses an exchange rate of 9.38 while the non-Sig uses an exchange rate of 8.77. The only reasonable explanation I can arrive at is that Tesla removed the Sig discount seen in the US for Norway/Europe. If Tesla intended to sell the Signature at 140,000 USD in Norway, that would bring the effective exchange rate down to a much more reasonable 8.85.
However, this doesn't explain the discrepency between a Signature P90D and a general production P90D. They will likely be delivered fairly close together, and yet, the Sig uses an exchange rate of 9.38 while the non-Sig uses an exchange rate of 8.77. The only reasonable explanation I can arrive at is that Tesla removed the Sig discount seen in the US for Norway/Europe. If Tesla intended to sell the Signature at 140,000 USD in Norway, that would bring the effective exchange rate down to a much more reasonable 8.85.
A Model X signature reservation holder on the norwegian EV forum has spoken to Tesla and has been told that the Signature price was set wrong, and it will be corrected.
This is good, but also fairly typical of the way Tesla operates. Incorrect information far too often makes it's way to the customers.
This is good, but also fairly typical of the way Tesla operates. Incorrect information far too often makes it's way to the customers.
......followed by Tesla, and individual Tesla employees, trying to then do the right thing by the customer. Not sure Tesla is getting sufficient credit for that here - it's really rare. Just finished fighting with 2 banks who were harassing a recent widower 1 week after the funeral over mistakes they made in their accounting. Wanted to get on a plane and strangle the bureaucracy and the mindless gnomes inhabiting it. Tesla may communicate like they were sending smoke signals in a Tornado, and that is driven from the top down, but very often they also strive to provide service and work hard to do the right thing (unless you are a whining journalist that didn't eat before attending an event), which also is driven from the top down.
We are seeing in these criticisms the reflection in the companies' strengths and weaknesses, a mirror of their dynamic CEO. Brilliant engineer of ground breaking products, but stilted and awkward communicator. Genuinely interested in providing technology that, at worst, will dramatically alter transportation and the quality of life on the planet and, at best, help save the world from environmental disaster. A nice synergy of classy means and noble ends, with poor communication as a side dish, but not as a main course.
I freaking hate the title of this thread...a very declarative statement by one person speaking for many. Who is the judge of who is most loyal??
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Krugerrand
Meow
No, I have not. I've simply said that a) mainstream buyers are not those that will be lining up at the stores to put down reservations and b) people watching the reveal months later are not the same people lining up. Your mistake is assuming that I believe as you; that there are only two groups of buyers.
Where'd you get the June 2017 date? I've only ever seen Elon say production starts the end of 2017. Is June the new December?
Regardless, I'm going to give this second group of buyers (the ones that watch the reveal several months later) a little bit of credit for basic deduction skills. As in, when they get their reservation number/discover they are the 60,000th (or whatever - pick a number you're comfortable with) person in line they will be able to come to the conclusion they aren't getting their car in June or December of 2017. But hey, maybe that's a limb I'm going out on.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Actually that's not quite right. This is what you said:
I had been using the example of typical, mainstream buyers watching the reveal months later to do some research before purchasing and you were saying that those lining up outside stores were not part of that group. I agreed with that. By differentiating your group lining up from my mainstream group watching the video before buying to make your point, you were saying that you accept the premise that those watching the videos are mainstream buyers. That may not be what you are saying now, but it is what you were saying then. If it wasn't, why say "they are not the same as", instead of simply disqualifying both groups?
I have no idea. It was a mistake. Elsewhere I refer to late 2017 or early 2018, so I'm not sure why I typed "June."
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