HW3.0 in EU model3?

[joverdijk]

Hi guys

I'm waiting for my current lease to end before getting a Model3 assigned to my order.
In Europe the first 'wave' is almost completed, last boat with Model3's arrived last week.
No further boats are scheduled as far as I know, but I suspect they well resume transport in 2nd part of April,
because Tesla's website states order now, delivery in May..

My current lease ends begin of May. I'm now considering trying to get a car/VIN assigned in April so I can pickup
in beginning of May, but this might give me a already shipped in batch#1 model... So I am now considering waiting a little more hoping the batch#2 (arriving end of April) will have HW3.0AP hardware. I can extend my current lease for a few weeks/month whatever....

What do you think? Maybe HW3 is already in all EU models? Or will it be in the 'next wave'.
Apart from that, I've ordered with basic autopilot (TACC) only, will HW3.0 give any better results being it more powerfull?
I am planning on buying FSD after delivery (because of tax-reasons better not to include it in initial buy). I read that if the car does not have HW3.0 it will be retro-fitted anyways if you buy FSD. But looking at part-availablity, I suspect they will not be retrofitting it right away and maybe it will take a long time???

What do you guys is best way to go?

 

[Troy]

I suspect they well resume transport in 2nd part of April, because Tesla's website states order now, delivery in May ...

I don't think it will be April. I think it will be after 15th of May. The question to ask is, "How long does it take from production to delivery in Europe?" Looking at Model 3 data is not ideal because they had unsold Model 3s in stock but Model X data is more reliable because it's built to order. Here is a screenshot from my Model S/X Order Tracker spreadsheet: If you look at the Netherlands, the examples are 44, 47 and 52 days.

I think you should wait for Tesla to announce HW3. I'd expect them to announce it between 10-20 April 2019. After the announcement, I would expect Tesla to tell each buyer whether the car is HW2.5 or HW3.0 because that's the main question people will be asking. Also, I would expect them to offer discounts on any HW2.5 cars they might have left in stock or they might get as customer returns.

If your delivery is after the announcement, it is unlikely that your car will be HW2.5. In addition, when taking delivery, you can always look at the driver's door frame label to see the month of manufacture. February 2019 or before is HW2.5. April 2019 or later will be HW3.0. March 2019 is most likely HW2.5 if you are in North America but most likely HW3.0 if you are in Europe or Asia.

I read that if the car does not have HW3.0 it will be retro-fitted anyways if you buy FSD

There are multiple risks with that idea:

• Retrofit delays: I calculate that 120,000 Teslas will need the free HW3 computer swap. It could take a few months until they swap your computer.
• Hardware differences: The statement that Tesla will retrofit Hardware 3.0 is not precise enough. Therefore it's misleading. What Elon said here was, they will swap the Autopilot computer and the sensors are already the same. However, there could be other hardware differences between HW2.5 and HW3.0 such as secondary wiring or backup power to add redundancy. If you look at HW2.0 vs HW2.5, there were in fact, these kind differences that add redundancy. HW2.5 has a second power steering motor, HW2.0 does not. HW2.5 has secondary wiring to the radar, HW2.0 does not. HW2.5 has the Remote Kill Switch feature, HW2.0 does not. See the details here. This was probably added because they expect regulators to ask for these features. There could be similar differences in HW3.0 to make FSD more future proof for regulatory approval.
• Future upgradability: HW3.0 could be more future proof than HW2.5. For example, in Germany, the Federal Motor Transport Authority [Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (KBA)] tested the capability of Tesla's Autopilot hardware and they had some reservations. There is a risk they might not approve FSD without a rear radar which is available in Mercedes' version. Without a rear-radar, performing Auto Lane Change without confirmation on the Autobahn could be dangerous because the cameras don't have enough range. Tesla knows this risk. They might design HW3 cars in a way that would support a potential rear radar retrofit. It is a risk to consider.

 

[joverdijk]

Thanks for the very informative reply, I really appreciate this. You really know your stuff, I was looking at lots of forums/reddit to gather some thrustfull info. I saw some hardware diagrams applying to first EU shipment that indicates a second radar interface, but really not sure if all hardware and equipment is in place already in current deliveries (delivered in february/march to EU). Most likely that is still HW2.5.

The timing of my delivery is kind of 'in between' ;-( Normally my old lease ends beginning of May, I think I can extend this for a couple of weeks but not THAT much. Maybe delivery end of May/begin of June. That might take me POSSIBLY into the production batch that will be shipped 2nd part of May... Boats to Europe offload in Zeebrugge Belgium and trucks are transporting them to The Netherlands within a few days/weeks for Delivery.

If it is just a computer-swap, I can wait for a few months, I'm not sure I'm going to order FSD directly after delivery, and if I do I'll take the 2.5 HW for the first couple of months before that HW30 swapout.
If however it is more than just a computer swapout and also installing extra rader equipment, additional wire-harnass etc I really don't know if they will do that kind of retro-fit for all FSD orders ;-(

Waiting a few more months will not be an option as it is a company car and they want me to take delivery soon after my leasing of the current car ends, preventing extra costs for runner-up/rental cars..

Trying to get a VIN coupled with my RN-number before the announcement is possibly not a good idea if I read your information.
Maybe wait for them to announce HW3.0. Can delivery see when they assign VIN if it is HW3.0 ?
And also, I suspect they can only start coupling cars as soon as they are on the boats..

Is HW3.0 only affecting FSD features/ NAO ? Or does it also speed up / improve reliability of basic AP (TACC/lanekeeping), due to maybe processing radar/camera images more often/second and cropped/non-cropped images? Or does it really only gets used in FSD features?

Also I would really like Tesla to make subscription model. Paying 7400EUR (around 7.5K $US) is really a significant drop to make.
I would be very happy to 'pay per month per feature'... Also for e.x. DogMode. I don't have dogs, just make it a like 5-10 dollar subscription per month and be able to turn stuff like that on/off in your account would be nice. Same with Sentry, but you could also apply it to FSD features NOA/traffic lights recognition etc etc.

Lot's of stuff to consider, it really sucks, looks like i'm just like 1-2 months 'too early' .. But already waiting sooooo long ;-/ It's killing me

 

[jjrandorin]

Thanks for the very informative reply, I really appreciate this. You really know your stuff, I was looking at lots of forums/reddit to gather some thrustfull info. I saw some hardware diagrams applying to first EU shipment that indicates a second radar interface, but really not sure if all hardware and equipment is in place already in current deliveries (delivered in february/march to EU). Most likely that is still HW2.5.

The timing of my delivery is kind of 'in between' ;-( Normally my old lease ends beginning of May, I think I can extend this for a couple of weeks but not THAT much. Maybe delivery end of May/begin of June. That might take me POSSIBLY into the production batch that will be shipped 2nd part of May... Boats to Europe offload in Zeebrugge Belgium and trucks are transporting them to The Netherlands within a few days/weeks for Delivery.

If it is just a computer-swap, I can wait for a few months, I'm not sure I'm going to order FSD directly after delivery, and if I do I'll take the 2.5 HW for the first couple of months before that HW30 swapout.
If however it is more than just a computer swapout and also installing extra rader equipment, additional wire-harnass etc I really don't know if they will do that kind of retro-fit for all FSD orders ;-(

Waiting a few more months will not be an option as it is a company car and they want me to take delivery soon after my leasing of the current car ends, preventing extra costs for runner-up/rental cars..

Trying to get a VIN coupled with my RN-number before the announcement is possibly not a good idea if I read your information.
Maybe wait for them to announce HW3.0. Can delivery see when they assign VIN if it is HW3.0 ?
And also, I suspect they can only start coupling cars as soon as they are on the boats..

Is HW3.0 only affecting FSD features/ NAO ? Or does it also speed up / improve reliability of basic AP (TACC/lanekeeping), due to maybe processing radar/camera images more often/second and cropped/non-cropped images? Or does it really only gets used in FSD features?

Also I would really like Tesla to make subscription model. Paying 7400EUR (around 7.5K $US) is really a significant drop to make.
I would be very happy to 'pay per month per feature'... Also for e.x. DogMode. I don't have dogs, just make it a like 5-10 dollar subscription per month and be able to turn stuff like that on/off in your account would be nice. Same with Sentry, but you could also apply it to FSD features NOA/traffic lights recognition etc etc.

Lot's of stuff to consider, it really sucks, looks like i'm just like 1-2 months 'too early' .. But already waiting sooooo long ;-/ It's killing me

I am categorically AGAINST any sort of subscription model for this. BTW.. dog mode, sentry mode, etc all "free" or included in the previous purchase of our cars, so not sure why you are encouraging them to start charging monthly for something that is free.

BMW in the US changed from charging MSRP $300 US for carplay to a yearly $80 subscription with 1 year free. I dont mind paying $300 for it (although most other manufacturers include it) but no way in @#$Q@$!R2 I am paying $80 a year for something that has almost zero need of updates FROM BMW.

I could see tesla turning to a subscription model for FSD features, but I sure as !@#$!@#$ hope they dont. I actually think that at some point they will simply include it in the price of the car, and raise the price some (but not as much as it currently costs).

/e off soapbox on subscriptions..

The retrofits will likely take a long time, but as far as anyone knows and what has been said, there is no benefit to HW 3 other than FSD features. We wont know for sure until its out there.

 

[Troy]

I saw some hardware diagrams applying to first EU shipment that indicates a second radar interface, but really not sure if all hardware and equipment is in place already in current deliveries (delivered in february/march to EU). Most likely that is still HW2.5.

Yes, that's something that is new in HW2.5. It's not relevant to HW3.0 other than it gives you an idea about the things Tesla might change in HW3.0. The things that are new in HW2.5 were first discovered here in case you find that topic interesting. The general trend in Tesla's Autopilot hardware changes is to add more redundancy and to prepare for things regulators might ask for before approving Full Self-Driving.

Is HW3.0 only affecting FSD features/ NAO ? Or does it also speed up / improve reliability of basic AP (TACC/lanekeeping), due to maybe processing radar/camera images more often/second and cropped/non-cropped images? Or does it really only gets used in FSD features?

Based on Elon's comments here after 17:10, all cameras will operate at higher frames per second with the HW3.0 computer and they won't use any compression. Therefore yes I think even basic AP will work better with HW3.

I think it's 99.5% likely that if you take delivery in Europe on any day of May 2019, your car will be HW3.

 

[PaulJohn]

Spoke to several people at Tesla. All European Model 3s are equipped with HW3.

 

[Kant.Ing]

The retrofit, per se, that Tesla has long been doing since 2 years ago is Software 2.0 which main intention is to fit new NNs into HW2.x. They already know HW2.x is an interim solution. Anyway hope that works.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Spoke to several people at Tesla. All European Model 3s are equipped with HW3.

Some of us have suspected that since seeing the codes in early January but we haven't seen any confirmation from anyone in Europe yet.

Our delivery was delayed slightly but we should be picking up our HW3 X tomorrow.

 

[joverdijk]

Spoke to several people at Tesla. All European Model 3s are equipped with HW3.

Are you certainly sure of this? In that case there is no need for me to postpone my delivery until May/June timeframe.
The first batch of Model3's has been delivered now (including complete madness this week for the end-of-quarter push), so you are suggesting the hardware for HW3.0 is already in *all* EU models (which started delivering last februari) ?
It would really *suck* badly if I take delivery of one of the latest HW2.5's if they start pushing out HW3.0 just a few weeks later.
Reading Troy's story above in this thread, it might not only be a computer-swapout but also different wiring-harnasses / additional sensors/radars etc.

 

[joverdijk]

Some of us have suspected that since seeing the codes in early January but we haven't seen any confirmation from anyone in Europe yet.

If there a way (json query?) for example to get info from a current EU Model3 owner and check if "APH4 Autopilot 3.0 Hardware" is present in the car ? It being there in some API descriptions means that Tesla included it in the software already, but how do we check if the hardware is actually there. In TeslaFI I don't see any HW versions above 2.5, if that still only a 'firmware unlock' to rename it to 3.0 and is the hardware already in place?

 

[joverdijk]

Based on Elon's comments here after 17:10, all cameras will operate at higher frames per second with the HW3.0 computer and they won't use any compression. Therefore yes I think even basic AP will work better with HW3.
I think it's 99.5% likely that if you take delivery in Europe on any day of May 2019, your car will be HW3.

Yeah apart from the fact that I want to buy FSD after delivery, also having HW3.0 with just basic AP will be better in comparison to 2.5 just for the lack of compression and the vastly improved performance of the processing power (frames/second).

Regarding taking the delivery in any Day of May 2019 in Europe, the last boats were offloaded on March24th in Zeebrugge (Belgium) and I am not sure when next ships will be scheduled to arrive. If this is indeed, what you mentioned above, new boats do not arrive before 15th of May, deliveries of the cars on these boats will probably start end may/begin June.

If I take delivery 'any date in May' it could be a 'leftover' car from the first februari/march EU shipping batch, and I'm very concerned about them still being HW2.5 ;-/

 

[MorrisonHiker]

If there a way (json query?) for example to get info from a current EU Model3 owner and check if "APH4 Autopilot 3.0 Hardware" is present in the car ? It being there in some API descriptions means that Tesla included it in the software already, but how do we check if the hardware is actually there. In TeslaFI I don't see any HW versions above 2.5, if that still only a 'firmware unlock' to rename it to 3.0 and is the hardware already in place?

If you use the API tools you can see the option codes of your Model 3 (or S or X). When I check ours, which was delivered in December 2018, we can confirm it has AP2.5 since it has the APH3 code. Ours shows: AD15, MDL3, PBSB, RENA, BT37, ID3W, RF3G, S3PB, DRLH, DV2W, W39B, APF0, COUS, BC3B, CH07, PC30, FC3P, FG31, GLFR, HL31, HM31, IL31, LTPB, MR31, FM3B, RS3H, SA3P, STCP, SC04, SU3C, T3CA, TW00, TM00, UT3P, WR00, AU3P, APH3, AF00, ZCST, MI00, CDM0. If you know have someone with a European Model 3, they would be able to confirm what their codes are via the API: About | Telsa API Safe Tools: Token Generator, API Query Tool, and Referral Info Retrieval | Userscripts | OpenUserJS Kudos to @HankLloydRight for putting that together.

We do know that they started having the APH4 code in non-US sites back in the second week of January. We don't know if that means all 3s going to Europe would have it already or if they would send the first batch with APH3 and then the 2nd quarter batch would have the APH4. Since others could've been checking the API for the past few weeks, I think we would've heard if they were already getting APH4.

We saw an X show up with APH4 in California last week and are taking delivery of it tomorrow. On open orders (at least for S & X) , the buyer can view the View Spec link to see the list of option codes before the car is delivered. After delivery, you can use the API to view the codes.

 

[Knightshade]

Hardware differences: The statement that Tesla will retrofit Hardware 3.0 is not precise enough. Therefore it's misleading. What Elon said here was, they will swap the Autopilot computer and the sensors are already the same.

As pointed out elsewhere- there's a lot more Elon said that is much more precise, and not at all misleading.

Including explicitly saying the 2.5->3 difference was just a computer swap. And, repeatedly, explicitly, stated that there's no reason to wait for a "factory" HW3 car compared to a 2.5->3 upgraded one.

However, there could be other hardware differences between HW2.5 and HW3.0 such as secondary wiring or backup power to add redundancy.

There couldn't be unless either Elon was lying about the change just being a computer swap and there was no benefit to waiting, or they plan to retrofit any of those other changes into FSD cars as well (neither seems likely)

If you look at HW2.0 vs HW2.5, there were in fact, these kind differences that add redundancy.

But no promise was ever made that there were no differences in that case.

Future upgradability: HW3.0 could be more future proof than HW2.5

Again, it can't be, unless Elon expressly and repeatedly lied to customers when he told them the change was just the computer, and there was no reason to wait.

Better upgradability obviously would be a reason to wait, and would be a difference that isn't "just" a computer swap.



Not to mention- we've already seen the diagram of the HW3 computer- it has the same 2 redundant front-radar connections (that initially people mistook for a "second radar" connection) - but turns out it had nothing new for connections. So other than unfounded speculation I'm not sure where you get the idea anything else changed or that it's set up to accommodate any new HW.


I asked this in the other thread- but by all means if you've got any evidence there's actually any differences beyond the computer- what are they? (especially given HW3 is already in the parts catalog- but I'm unaware of any OTHER changes related to it that are- have you found any?)

 

[joverdijk]

Fellow dutch forum-member just queried his European model3 but it gives all kinds of weird codes:

"AD15,MDL3,PBSB,RENA,BT37,ID3W,RF3G,S3PB,DRLH,DV2W,W39B,APF0,COUS,BC3B,CH07,PC30,FC3P,FG31,GLFR,HL31,HM31,IL31,LTPB,MR31,FM3B,RS3H,SA3P,STCP,SC04,SU3C,T3CA,TW00,TM00,UT3P,WR00,AU3P,APH3,AF00,ZCST,MI00,CDM0

It's an AWD (only models available in EU are AWD and the performance AWD), but these codes above seem to be bogus because:
DV2W (RWD) should be DV4W (AWD) en RENA (Region North America) also does not make sense for European model. So I dont know if the 'APH3' can be trusted as well..
By the way It is for sure the EU model (with different headlightunits, the extra emergency call button etc etc).

In reply to KnightShade: So, it seems it's after all just a computer swap (and maybe some redundant adding wiring to the one-and-only radar in front ? ... In that case, maybe I won't wait for stock fitted HW3 to arrive... On the other hand, in Europe, getting parts for Tesla is a nightmare (might be the same for US) ... Service-centers sometimes have to wait months for parts.
If HW3 computers are released, and whole Tesla-fleet worldwide wants a refit .. that could take like ....ages.....

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Fellow dutch forum-member just queried his European model3 but it gives all kinds of weird codes:

"AD15,MDL3,PBSB,RENA,BT37,ID3W,RF3G,S3PB,DRLH,DV2W,W39B,APF0,COUS,BC3B,CH07,PC30,FC3P,FG31,GLFR,HL31,HM31,IL31,LTPB,MR31,FM3B,RS3H,SA3P,STCP,SC04,SU3C,T3CA,TW00,TM00,UT3P,WR00,AU3P,APH3,AF00,ZCST,MI00,CDM0

It's an AWD (only models available in EU are AWD and the performance AWD), but these codes above seem to be bogus because:
DV2W (RWD) should be DV4W (AWD) en RENA (Region North America) also does not make sense for European model. So I dont know if the 'APH3' can be trusted as well..
By the way It is for sure the EU model (with different headlightunits, the extra emergency call button etc etc).

In reply to KnightShade: So, it seems it's after all just a computer swap (and maybe some redundant adding wiring to the one-and-only radar in front ? ... In that case, maybe I won't wait for stock fitted HW3 to arrive... On the other hand, in Europe, getting parts for Tesla is a nightmare (might be the same for US) ... Service-centers sometimes have to wait months for parts.
If HW3 computers are released, and whole Tesla-fleet worldwide wants a refit .. that could take like ....ages.....

I've heard that the codes on a 3 aren't accurate. Someone was saying they use the same codes for all cars (or did for quite a while). I've wondered if that's why the 3 in the phone app shows up as black originally before switching over to the actual car color whereas the S and X always show up correctly.

 

[Frank D33]

Hey everyone,

This is my first time here. I thought you might like to see a short video on how I learned to drive a Tesla. Plus, I am curious if anyone experienced the same 2 issues I did. All in good fun, but I did have those issues. Thanks for watching. Here is the link:

Frank

 

[Troy]

I dont know if the 'APH3' can be trusted as well.

APH3 means HW2.5. Those with HW3.0 see APH4

APH1 = version 1.0
APH2 = version 2.0
APH3 = version 2.5
APH4 = version 3.0

 

[joverdijk]

APH3 means HW2.5. Those with HW3.0 see APH4

Yeah i know that... But, the european models return also codes like DV2W (RWD) should be DV4W (AWD) en RENA (Region North America) also does not make sense at all. So I don't trust the APH3 100%. Like MorissonHiker said a few replies back, 'the codes on a 3 aren't accurate.' ....

So I guess this does not tell us anything for sure just yet...

 

[destructure00]

Just posted an hour ago link

 

[jjrandorin]

Straight to the point, direct, and no ambiguity there. Thanks for posting for those of us who will not use twitter.