hybrids are not EVcars , shut them out

[one2many]

It seems that everyday someone comes out with an "EV" car that is not one.
With the battery power of a flashlight trying to get credits that is clean, I guess I
am one the few to say enough is enough. Get rid of credits for all car that are not
fully electric. I am not a tree hugger but I do not want to destroy the planet, its
cost lots of money. just say no to any gas cars.

 

[vjason]

The infrastructure isn't there to flip to EV's overnight, let alone in 5 years.

An estimated 20% of the US live in apartments, most of which probably don't offer charging facilities. That doesn't include condos, mobile homes, and other facilities where charging is also (sometimes) more difficult to arrange.

Plus, batteries are not yet cheap enough. And for Tesla, there simply isn't enough parts availability for the cars that are on the road today.

The tipping point will be reached, but I suspect we will be a lot closer to 2030 than 2020 when that happens.

Hybrids help bridge the gap while the charging infrastructure is built out. Not perfect, but better than not having them at all. Hybrids will die easily enough when their architecture is no longer needed.

 

[willow_hiller]

Hybrids are a necessary bridge for those who live in areas without infrastructure, but I have to agree with the OP with regards to incentives.

I've seen people praising the 2020 Lincoln Aviator SUV Plug-in which has an incredible 18 miles of all electric range! I thought it was a typo at first, but no, people were actually impressed by 18 miles. And it gets a terrible 22 MPG. And of course that tiny battery qualifies it for half of the Federal tax credit, HOV incentives, state incentives, etc. Why should any government be willing to incentivize the purchase of a hybrid SUV with an MPG half that of a smaller non-hybrid vehicle?

 

[one2many]

Well if you do not have the need then they will never offer the option
to charge. The people I know who have Hybuts never us the electric mode,
as soon that they need A/C or heat, or speed, the flashlight is empty.

 

[640k]

The infrastructure isn't there to flip to EV's overnight, let alone in 5 years.

An estimated 20% of the US live in apartments, most of which probably don't offer charging facilities. That doesn't include condos, mobile homes, and other facilities where charging is also (sometimes) more difficult to arrange.

Plus, batteries are not yet cheap enough. And for Tesla, there simply isn't enough parts availability for the cars that are on the road today.

The tipping point will be reached, but I suspect we will be a lot closer to 2030 than 2020 when that happens.

Hybrids help bridge the gap while the charging infrastructure is built out. Not perfect, but better than not having them at all. Hybrids will die easily enough when their architecture is no longer needed.

TBF we're already in the 2020 model year so you're not wrong. Hybrids, however, have been around since the late 90s. When does the bridge end?

I think people forget that when Elon started Tesla, it wasn't to become the next GM/Toyota, it was to shake up/wake up the industry and it worked. Legacy hold-outs that claimed the demand didn't exist took a 180 and have a lineup out or on the roadmap.

i think the next 10 years are going to be exciting for the automotive industry. It's been so stagnant in the last decade I welcome the change.

 

[St☰v☰]

I agree, they are "gas powered battery chargers" not EV's. Maybe a new term, SEV, semi-electric vehicle

 

[Viking79]

Hybrids help reduce gas usage dramatically. I understand the desire for 0 gas usage, but EVs are not 0 gas usage in most areas due to indirect electricity generation. Yes, I understand grid is getting cleaner, but by same measure, if people move from normal ICE to HEV they are also getting cleaner.

Hybrids help as they allow using lower displacement and more efficient Atkinson cycle engines to match the torque of the electric motors. Granted, not all hybrids are equal, but by setting EPA mileage requirements you really only get benefit from parallel series hybrids at this point.

My wife put 30,000 miles in year 1 of owning her Clarity PHEV, 17,000 EV miles and 13,000 gas miles at 40 mpg (estimate). This was a huge gas savings over the van (about 1200 gallons in a year).

I suspect, hybrids will naturally be pushed out due to higher costs of dual drive trains as EVs reach large volume production and chargers are plentiful.

 

[Petrocelli]

I actually considered buying a Honda Clarity. It had a range of about 50 miles, which was enough for a round trip commute. I just couldn't get past the looks of it.

A lot of people I work with have Plug in Hybrids. They would have to charge at work to get home on battery power. With the recent deluge of Model 3s, available chargers are now harder to get.

 

[willow_hiller]

My wife put 30,000 miles in year 1 of owning her Clarity PHEV, 17,000 EV miles and 13,000 gas miles at 40 mpg (estimate).

If we're looking for a model of how to do EV incentives, I actually really like how Washington DC does it. Hybrid Vehicle Excise Tax Exemption | dmv

Sales tax is waived for any vehicle that has 40 city MPG or greater; regardless of fuel mix. It incentivizes small, efficient gas cars over large, inefficient hybrid SUVs.

 

[Eno Deb]

I suspect, hybrids will naturally be pushed out due to higher costs of dual drive trains as EVs reach large volume production and chargers are plentiful.

Battery cost needs to come down significantly for that to happen. Hybrids with a small battery are currently much less expensive than a BEV with a larger battery. E.g. compare the prices of a Prius (~24k) with the Chevy Bolt or Hyundai Kona (~$36k). I think hybrids will become the norm in the next few years (unless the current administration actually manages to roll back emission regulations).

 

[focher]

You also have to distinguish between a hybrid like a Prius (not plug-in version) and a PHEV. At least a PHEV takes grid power to energize the battery.

 

[Kappelan]

I drove 60,000 km on my current Chevy Volt, 47,000 of them was electric. I think that a good amount of avoided emission. Besides my two Volts helped me with the transition to the EV.

 

[acoste]

It seems that everyday someone comes out with an "EV" car that is not one.
With the battery power of a flashlight trying to get credits that is clean, I guess I
am one the few to say enough is enough. Get rid of credits for all car that are not
fully electric. I am not a tree hugger but I do not want to destroy the planet, its
cost lots of money. just say no to any gas cars.

When it comes to total life cycle emissions, hybrids are still ok. The attached image is from 2016.

 

[SSedan]

Hybrids are a good ambassador for EVs as well.
Was a time when few accepted the Prius, today they are viewed just as an economy car not as the joke they were initially.

TOLERANCE helps a lot too, one of the first people at work to want a ride in my S is one who was just finishing up a SEMA build based on a Powerstroke Ford F250 or F350.

From what I see Tesla owners are the best AND THE WORST EV salespeople out there. Drop the attitude about ICE and focus on HONEST discussion about EVs the pros and admit the cons.

 

[Curious George]

Have you considered the co2 footprint of the battery?
Swedish study calls for smaller EV batteries, finds Tesla more polluting than an 8-year-old car | Autovista Group
"a car with an internal combustion engine (ICE) can drive for eight years before it reaches the same environmental load as a Tesla with a 100kWh battery."

What's great about a hybrid ? It doesn't need extra infrastructure.
It can be sold anywhere in the world where gas cars are sold today.
Anyone can switch to it.
Does not depend much on new battery factories and mines.
Does not need 1000 chargers in the office parking lot.

 

[willow_hiller]

Have you considered the co2 footprint of the battery?
Swedish study calls for smaller EV batteries, finds Tesla more polluting than an 8-year-old car | Autovista Group
"a car with an internal combustion engine (ICE) can drive for eight years before it reaches the same environmental load as a Tesla with a 100kWh battery."

What's great about a hybrid ? It doesn't need extra infrastructure.
It can be sold anywhere in the world where gas cars are sold today.
Anyone can switch to it.
Does not depend much on new battery factories and mines.
Does not need 1000 chargers in the office parking lot.

I'm suspicious of that study from 2017. Here's a more recent article: Electric Car Myth Buster — Well-To-Wheel Emissions | CleanTechnica

“We found that battery electric cars generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for.”

And you don't need 1000 chargers at work. You're setting up a strawman argument. As long as you live within 100 miles of your office, the cheapest Model 3 can do a round-trip commute without a charge in the middle easily.

 

[Curious George]

I'm suspicious of that study from 2017. Here's a more recent article: Electric Car Myth Buster — Well-To-Wheel Emissions | CleanTechnica

“We found that battery electric cars generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for.”

And you don't need 1000 chargers at work. You're setting up a strawman argument. As long as you live within 100 miles of your office, the cheapest Model 3 can do a round-trip commute without a charge in the middle easily.

Out of curiosity, I went ahead and read that Cleantechica article. It's highly flawed. I will debunk it later. is the author just careless or has an agenda? He is blaming Koch brothers for these neutral studies Is billionaire Elon Musk paying for this site?

Chargers at work: Read post #8 up thread. Why is model 3 with more than 300 mile range depriving the plug-in hybrids from a charge at work then? If plug-in hybrids can be charged at work, they can commute 100% on electricity.

 

[willow_hiller]

Why is model 3 with more than 300 mile range depriving the plug-in hybrids from a charge at work then?

The Honda Clarity gets about 2.8 miles to the kWh. A SR+ Model 3 gets 4 miles per kWh. Every kWh of charging that goes to a Tesla allows for more all-electric miles driven than if it went to a hybrid that also has to lug around an entire ICE drivetrain.

If plug-in hybrids can be charged at work, they can commute 100% on electricity.

It's a bit paradoxical that you first state the lack of charging infrastructure creates the need for hybrid vehicles, and then claim that the very same infrastructure is needed to make plug-in hybrids worthwhile.

Long range EVs negate the need for hybrid vehicles and widespread charging infrastructure. In fact, in Japan people who live in rural areas are turning to EVs because of the lack of ICE infrastructure. They can easily plug their EV into their home to charge overnight, while the nearest gas station is miles away.

The Tesla Supercharger network as it stands today is sufficient for me to drive my 240 mile range SR+ to any of the continental 48 states (or any city in North America, we had a 1,300 road trip to Montreal and back last month). And it will continue to be sufficient even as EV adoption rates increase because the vast majority of charging is done at home.

 

[acoste]

I'm suspicious of that study from 2017. Here's a more recent article: Electric Car Myth Buster — Well-To-Wheel Emissions | CleanTechnica

“We found that battery electric cars generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for.”

And you don't need 1000 chargers at work. You're setting up a strawman argument. As long as you live within 100 miles of your office, the cheapest Model 3 can do a round-trip commute without a charge in the middle easily.

These 2 studies are not too far apart.
- One says "(ICE) can drive for eight years before it reaches the same environmental load as a Tesla with a 100kWh battery."
- The other says: “We found that battery electric cars generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for.” but this study calculates with a total of 179k miles. That's 13-14 years.
https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/defaul...ner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf


One more relevant article:

Analysis finds hybrids make better use of scarce batteries than pure EVs

 

[Curious George]

Here is the big flaw in that CleanTechnica article. It quoted this:
"The national average is 4,815 pounds of CO2-equivalent emissions for a typical EV per year as compared to the average gasoline-powered car which produces 11,435 pounds of CO2-equivalent emissions annually.”

What does that average include? Big SUVs, muscle cars, pick-ups like F150, 250 and F350? Some of these are work hoirses, so they drive whole day long. Old inefficient gas cars with 15-20 mpg?
But EVs are all new, and I can't find any EV pick up truck on the road. What EV car today is a work horse? So the article basically compared apples to oranges and declared victory

If I take a 50 mpg Toyota Camry hybrid, same size and utility as Model S, at 12000 miles a year, it consumes 240 gallons a year. Times 8.8 kg co2/gallon is 2112 kg, or 4646 lbs of co2 a year. Nowhere near the 11435 quoted, and BELOW the 4815. That's a total of 17 tonnes CO2 for 8 years.
While electric revolution is ongoing, ICE cars are still improving every day too.

From https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/contentIncludes/co2_inc.htm:

Also, a midsize car production is about 17 tones co2.
Manufacturing a car creates as much carbon as driving it
The carbon footprint of a new car:
6 tonnes CO2e: Citroen C1, basic spec
17 tonnes CO2e: Ford Mondeo, medium spec
35 tonnes CO2e: Land Rover Discovery, top of the range

So, 68% more co2 (from the UCS from your article), it is 12 tonnes more CO2. It will take a while for it to beat the Camry hybrid when it has produced 12 tonnes CO2 right at the beginning. If the car is totaled before 8 years, then it will lose for sure.
The best you can do for the planet is just keeping your old fuel sipping Prius or Citroen than buying a new car every 3-4 years.

Or take the bus or bike. Hey, there is an idea. How about some tax rebates for people who bike to work? Has anyone heard of any tax rebate from our concerned governments for these people?

Chargers: I think we are mixing up hybrid with plug-in hybrid in this thread.