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Hyperloop

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I thought about parachutes, but how effective would they be in the reduced atmospheric pressure? Plus they couldn't be very large. Maybe instead of a parachute you shoot out an airbag that inflates to fill the tunnel, like a giant inflatable cork! :biggrin: You could have one in front and in back if needed.
 
It occurs to me that although the depressurised tube is the focus of Hyperloop - would not the use of air bearings to lift the vehicle be also possible at normal atmosphere, so the vehicle would be hybrid of a hovercraft and a train. One could imagine air pumped into slots in an normal or an overhead system. Sure it would not be as efficient as a maglev system, as you would be converting electrical current to mechanical energy via compressors (they could be on vehicle or on track) but the system might be cheaper to build and maintain than a pipe or maglev system and a top speed would still beat conventional high speed rail. You would still use a linear induction motor to drive system?

Well effectively it would be a hovertrain!
 
That's certainly a likely possibility. Since the pdf mentions the tube will be pressurized while the breaking occurs (though that's not the final word), I guess the increasing aerodynamic resistance will take some of the energy. Then, the above calculation would provide the upper limit, so to speak, only some part of which would actually take place. Or useful to consider the feasibility of using parachutes at the beginning, at the highest speeds, if you want.
I completely agree that the process of re-pressurization will add to the braking, but my main problem with using air resistance as the main braking force is controlling it. My concern has to do with buffeting and possibly lifting of the car due to turbulence. Controlling the details of how the air would flow down the tube and hit the high speed car sounds pretty tricky and I've seen enough videos of much slower racing cars becoming airborne to be doubtful. In any event, there'd have to be some kind of mechanical braking system once the car slowed down significantly since the aerodynamic force goes down with the square of the velocity.
 
Agree that turbulence would be a problem. However, even without active air brakes, the rising air pressure will cause a good amount of aerodynamic resistance. Delaying the pressurization would pose a problem in the case when there is a larger cabin air leak.
 
If hyperloop cars need to be slowed as they approach a stop, why not just use a stretch of linear induction motor in tunnel to slow the car and reclaim some of the kinetic energy as power to add to the battery packs that will store solar power for days when it is not sunny?
 
If hyperloop cars need to be slowed as they approach a stop, why not just use a stretch of linear induction motor in tunnel to slow the car and reclaim some of the kinetic energy as power to add to the battery packs that will store solar power for days when it is not sunny?
That's in the design document.

- - - Updated - - -

Could someone check this math. Either Elon or I have something out of whack (or I don't understand what he's saying)

The Hyperloop pdf page 40 talks about maximum inertial acceleration of .5 g at 1220 kph (339 m/s) and a radius of 4.8 km with banking.

I can't get this to work.

To turn at that speed and radius, I get a centripetal acceleration of 24m/s2 and a bank angle of about 67 deg which gives a normal acceleration of 26 m/s2.

If I assume the maximum normal acceleration to be 1.5g (14.7 m/s2) I get a centripetal acceleration of 11 m/s2 and a radius of about 10481m

If I assume they meant .5 g lateral acceleration, I get a tilt angle of about 56 degrees and a normal acceleration of about 19 m/s2. This could be changed by rotating the car to make more of the acceleration vector "down" for the passengers, but it's still around 2 g.

I don't see how these numbers work, although the most intriguing is the idea that the car can accelerate .5 g laterally as there is nothing obvious in the design to support that.
 
The Hyperloop pdf page 40 talks about maximum inertial acceleration of .5 g at 1220 kph (339 m/s) and a radius of 4.8 km with banking.

I can't get this to work.

To turn at that speed and radius, I get a centripetal acceleration of 24m/s2 and a bank angle of about 67 deg which gives a normal acceleration of 26 m/s2.

Your math is correct; it looks like a typo or mistake in the document.

Search the PDF for 'radius' and you'll see that they have more reasonable figures in other places.
 
Okaaaaaaaay....let's put this in a reference a little easier to understand than Mr Musk's great "1/6 of Mars's atmosphere....":

Q: What are the g-forces associated with various amusement park rides?

A: From here - Highest G-Force on a Roller Coaster - Coasterpedia - The Roller Coaster Wiki - we can get a list of 19 rides ranging from 5g to 6.3g (the latter is South Africa's "Tower of Terror"). I've no way to vouch for its authoritativeness.

At any rate, for some reason there is a significant fraction of the population who go out of their way - and out of pocket - to take a ride on a Vomit Comet. I wonder why.

I think you may be mixing up references.

The reference to "1/6 of Mars's atmosphere...." that Elon made was describing the mount of air pressure in the tube. The discussions regarding G forces attributed to acceleration and/or emergency braking are not directly related to the pressure in the tube.
 
I thought about parachutes, but how effective would they be in the reduced atmospheric pressure? Plus they couldn't be very large. Maybe instead of a parachute you shoot out an airbag that inflates to fill the tunnel, like a giant inflatable cork! :biggrin: You could have one in front and in back if needed.

I know car air bags are designed to quickly deflate but your idea has merit when it comes to two cars hitting each other too. If both cars have inflated bags even better!
 
I think you may be mixing up references.

The reference to "1/6 of Mars's atmosphere...." that Elon made was describing the mount of air pressure in the tube. The discussions regarding G forces attributed to acceleration and/or emergency braking are not directly related to the pressure in the tube.

Right!....and wrong. I know there is no connection; my point was just a jocular one pointing fun at the astronomically arcane reference to Mars's atmosphere, something for which no one has any good familiarity, other than Mr Musk, versus the significantly familiar amusement park rides.
 
It occurs to me that although the depressurised tube is the focus of Hyperloop - would not the use of air bearings to lift the vehicle be also possible at normal atmosphere, so the vehicle would be hybrid of a hovercraft and a train. One could imagine air pumped into slots in an normal or an overhead system. Sure it would not be as efficient as a maglev system, as you would be converting electrical current to mechanical energy via compressors (they could be on vehicle or on track) but the system might be cheaper to build and maintain than a pipe or maglev system and a top speed would still beat conventional high speed rail. You would still use a linear induction motor to drive system?

Well effectively it would be a hovertrain!

If you want to go fast you want low pressure. Not much can go 700 mph at 1 atm, and the things that do consume fuel like crazy.
Constructing a depressurized tube isn't crazy expensive compared to the cost of constructing high speed rail.
A depressurized tube is crazy cheap to operate compared to the cost of operating a 1 atm train.

Once you do the math on how much (or little) it costs to build the depressurized tube, it's a bit surprising that nobody's done it yet, regardless of whether you use steel wheels on steel rails, maglev, or this new air cushion idea.
 
Derek

I agree that travelling at 700mph would be more efficient in a tube, but using the air bearings on skis on a 300mph train would provide a useful and immediate use for Elons innovative technology. How you drive a train would then be a question. If you are using an onboard electric compressor (effectively an electric turbofan) you could drive it forward with a simple electrical connection and the trackway could be a very cheap concrete or steel guidelines. If you are using a linear motor, then you are increasing costs and this would be a direct alternative to Maglev technology. The focus of the technology would then be how the air works at the boundary level and how much energy is required to lift a vehicle , (say half an inch), and how much drag is induced - and how this beats steel wheels with their weight and rolling resistance or Maglev.

In terms of depressurised tubes, I am not qualified to assess, but on another forum someone better qualified than me was very sceptical about the possibility of maintaining a vacuum in a long tube, not just for the economics of pumping out the air, but because of airlocks etc. The nearest example quoted to me was the tunnelling at CERN, which has a similar diameter to proposed tube systems and is a vacuum tube. Certainly the vacuum required by ET3 seems pretty unreachable with current materials and technology, but Hyperloop is an attempt to use low pressure systems to have the lack of air resistance without the economic and technological barriers.


As a note, Elon also has raised the idea of a supersonic electric plane - perhaps next year he could release a paper on that!:love:
 
Revisiting the thermal expansion problem... The most severe unaddressed issue in the proposed design is that there would be far too much friction and/or tension for the entire 600km tube to expand and contract passively without buckling.

There are two basic approaches to solving this, as I see it. First would be to put expansion joints at regular intervals along the line. This is obviously complicated by the fact that the tube must remain almost perfectly straight and still maintain a vacuum, but there are reasonably straightforward designs that should work. For instance, the tube could be "cut" in a triangle-wave zigzag pattern, with the "teeth" perhaps a few centimeters wide and a meter long. Even with a half-meter longitudinal gap, the capsule's 1.5-meter-long skis would be well-supported at all times while crossing this zigzag gap. An accordion-like steel "bellows" could be welded to the outside of the pipe across the cut, which could flexibly expand and contract while maintaining a vacuum inside. Outside the tube, straight rail mechanisms could ensure that the two sides of the cut stay perfectly aligned. Additional supports could prevent the bellows from collapsing inwards under vacuum pressure. These expansion joints would have to be placed about every mile or so along the tube, and probably calibrated to close completely shut at a temperature of around 150 °F or so. For each mile-long welded section, the tube would then have to be fixed to the central pylon, and glide longitudinally over the neighboring ones. This could create tension problems especially for non-horizontal sections of the tube, which will require expansion joints at more frequent intervals. (Though inside the tunnels, thermal expansion is minimized.)

The second solution would be to still weld the entire tube together seamlessly as in the alpha proposal, but actively move the tube longitudinally to compensate for the thermal expansion/contraction. This would have to be done continuously and actively, though it could be done with backup battery power and significant redundancy. (Several pylons in a row could fail without compromising the system.) Worst-case, consider the Grapevine section of the tube, where there is a net elevation gain of 700 meters over 80km. At sundown, this entire section of the tube (15,000 metric tons) needs to move "uphill" at roughly a 1° angle, at about 5mm per second, to compensate for thermal contraction. In a frictionless environment, this only takes about 7 kilowatts of power to achieve (total!), which is surprisingly little. In reality, friction will be by far the dominating factor; the bearings on the pylons must have enough friction to prevent unpowered non-horizontal sections of the tube from collapsing under tension like a Chinese finger puzzle. (or other areas warping under compression, like a wet piece of bucatini squished in at both ends.)

I don't see a clear winner between these two approaches, but the second seems much simpler and cheaper from an engineering perspective. The downside is that in case of ongoing systemwide power failure, your entire hyperloop is pretty much toast. (A Carrington Event could potentially cause this, if the state power grid were shut down for weeks or months. Another reason to make the system self-sufficient with solar!)

Ok, I've rambled on enough. Thoughts from the gallery?
 
Revisiting the thermal expansion problem... The most severe unaddressed issue in the proposed design is that there would be far too much friction and/or tension for the entire 600km tube to expand and contract passively without buckling.
It would be good if you could you provide some numbers for this assertion.

Thermal expansion would be almost entirely along the length of the tube which is its greatest strength. The tube would pass through the pylon bushings practically in a straight line. How did you arrive at the result that there would be a buckling danger?
 
As before: the oil industry long ago learned this long-axis thermal expansion problem not to exist. I've got an 815-mile long steel tube 700 yards from where I live called the Trans-Alaska Pipeline.

40 years on and it hasn't buckled yet.