Hyundai KonaEV

[banned-66611]

In its initial form, the spreadsheet is just an info page (colour-coded for what features are associated with each package), but I'd like to turn it into a comparator so you can pick packages and it'll show you a comparison for that specific config. There's 263 rows in the spreadsheet at present

I've been looking for a decent way to do comparisons online. The best so far seems to be SocialCompare but I'd prefer finding a way in something like GOogle Docs.

I'm sticking to affordable long range EVs for my comparison, probably Leaf 60, Kona 64, Niro 64, M3 SR and maybe some future stuff like the Soul 64.

 

[KarenRei]

It's hard to define a good cutoff for "affordable". For example, is the i3 affordable? Starts at prices (w/o tax and incentives) ranging from $35,6k (UK) to $44,5k (US). But the Bolt/Ampera-E, commonly considered "affordable", starts at $37,5k (US) / $41,9k (NO), and Premier alone adds $4285, so that's already blowing away the base price of the BMW. The next gen Leaf is rumoured to start at $35k, and SL (at least at present) adds $4210 over the base price (plus $650 for ProPilot, and they can also make a killing on monthly services after the 3 year trial period expires). The 64kWh Kona is hardly bottom rung, either, at as much as ~$10k more than Zoe, E-Golf and Ioniq (depends on the market... amazing how much price variation I'm seeing between markets, even after removing VAT. I've been tracking figures for five "representative" markets: US, UK, NO, NL, and SK). And Premium SE adds $2,5k to the Kona.

My general thoughts are that it's better to be inclusive rather than exclusive and just define some general ones that are "right out" for the "affordable" category. E.g. Model S and X are "right out", I-Pace is "right out", E-Tron is "right out", etc.

 

[banned-66611]

It's hard to define a good cutoff for "affordable".

Yes. I'd say something like average price. If BMW come out with a new i3 I'll probably include that, but the current one fails on long range.

 

[banned-66611]

There is no single universal "real-world mile".

Indeed, so I think obsessing over range isn't very helpful. With a solid 400 miles at highway speed and decent charge rates for most people it's probably a minor consideration next to the shape of the car, price, features, storage space etc.

 

[KarenRei]

I agree that range isn't a huge deal once you have "enough".

I strongly disagree that charge speed isn't a huge deal. IMHO charge speed (mph/kph) is the differentiator between a "local car" / "second car", and an actual car.

 

[WannabeOwner]

How about time to travel 500km and 1000km?

Sounds like a good comparison metric. Its not how I plan a trip, but that's post-ownership rather than pre-ownership comparison.

(For a given trip I have calculated that I am going to arrive at X% and need to charge to Y% to reach next stop/destination so that tells me a) charging time and b) if I arrive at different SoC what my stop-time will then be)

If the battery is full and no regen is available it applies more friction braking for a consistent response.

Good to hear

 

[banned-66611]

I strongly disagree that charge speed isn't a huge deal. IMHO charge speed (mph/kph) is the differentiator between a "local car" / "second car", and an actual car.

I agree up to a point, but all the cars I'm considering charge fast enough to be well outside the "local car" definition.

The EU rules on commercial drivers are a minimum of 45 minutes per 4.5 hours of driving, and a maximum of 9 hours a day, so unless you are stuck with sub-40kW charging then you couldn't actually exceed that anyway. Obviously as a private individual you are free to ignore those rules, but accommodating people with such extreme needs tends to skew the whole thing for the other 99.9% of drivers.

Driving time and rest periods - Mobility and Transport - European Commission

Sounds like a good comparison metric. Its not how I plan a trip, but that's post-ownership rather than pre-ownership comparison.

I suppose the best option would be a website that lets you put in some routes you are likely to do and tells you how long it will take, what the charging situation in your area is like etc. Way beyond what I have time for though.

Thanks for confirming about the Model 3 one-pedal mode/regen as well. My old Leaf was the same, reduced regen when fully charged, quite annoying.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I suppose the best option would be a website that lets you put in some routes you are likely to do and tells you how long it will take, what the charging situation in your area is like et

A Better Route Planner has that ability

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I agree up to a point, but all the cars I'm considering charge fast enough to be well outside the "local car" definition.

The EU rules on commercial drivers are a minimum of 45 minutes per 4.5 hours of driving, and a maximum of 9 hours a day, so unless you are stuck with sub-40kW charging then you couldn't actually exceed that anyway. Obviously as a private individual you are free to ignore those rules, but accommodating people with such extreme needs tends to skew the whole thing for the other 99.9% of drivers.

Huh? 270:45 = 6:1. That's a massive drive:charge ratio. If charging at 40kW were sufficient it implies an average draw of 6 2/3kW.

Thanks for confirming about the Model 3 one-pedal mode/regen as well. My old Leaf was the same, reduced regen when fully charged, quite annoying.

The Leaf was short range so would be fully charged much more often. Short-range BEV experience doesn't really translate well into the long-range BEV experience generally: more 100% charges, frequency of range anxiety, frequency of stops, DCFC rate.
People don't normally fully charge in long-range BEVs, so they'd only experience regen limits on longer trips that are more likely to be high speed and so remove the limitation faster. And if on a long trip, you would charge until the taper, so it would really only apply on departure.

 

[WannabeOwner]

only experience regen limits on longer trips

Start of commute every morning, and evening, for me in the Winter - so best part of 5 months of the year. Also at the start of any Winter journey where I have stopped for, say, an hour or more and the battery has got cold again.

Winter here is not particularly cold, but often below 10C

I would definitely like one-pedal driving experience to be consistent, regardless of SoC / temperature etc.

Hooking it up to a resistive heater would be handy in Winter

 

[banned-66611]

A Better Route Planner has that ability

Is there any way to enter your own car parameters? If you could enter the battery capacity and select the chargers manually you could use this tool for any car.

Huh? 270:45 = 6:1. That's a massive drive:charge ratio. If charging at 40kW were sufficient it implies an average draw of 6 2/3kW.

I have no idea what these numbers are.

Edit: Oh, 270 minutes driving to 45 minutes charging. Sure, although I think for maximum performance you would be better off doing a couple of ~20 minute charges or a 30/15 split or something.

So with a 50kW CCS you can charge at about 45kW, which is the slowest possible rapid charger in Europe. That's maybe 300km/hour, not exactly terrible. With a 400km motorway range you will probably only do one rapid charge a day anyway, more is into illegal-for-commercial-drivers territory.

People don't normally fully charge in long-range BEVs

I don't know if they fixed it on the Leaf 40, but they removed the "charge to 80%" option on the Leaf 30. Said it wasn't needed to preserve the battery... But I used it to avoid having no regen!

The important point is that cars with more advanced brake-by-wire systems always apply a consistent amount of braking force for a given amount of pressure on the pedal, regardless of how much regen is available due to SoC or temperature or whatever.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Is there any way to enter your own car parameters?

There's a blog article. If a handful of owners fit a logger to the car's port then ABRP will add the car/model.

You could put wH/mile in now, but battery size would be an issue. I suppose you could set the initial SoC and use the "arrival percentage" to "constrain" an existing model to a narrow-er band - e.g. just for the purposes of some experiments. Not much good to Mr and Mrs Average Joe though ...

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I have no idea what these numbers are.

Edit: Oh, 270 minutes driving to 45 minutes charging. Sure, although I think for maximum performance you would be better off doing a couple of ~20 minute charges or a 30/15 split or something.

So with a 50kW CCS you can charge at about 45kW, which is the slowest possible rapid charger in Europe. That's maybe 300km/hour, not exactly terrible. With a 400km motorway range you will probably only do one rapid charge a day anyway, more is into illegal-for-commercial-drivers territory.

For commercial drivers, it doesn't matter whether it's "not terrible", it matters whether drivers can get sufficient charge during their mandated break time. The law allows a 6:1 drive:break ratio, so charging would need to match that ratio.
Anything less adds time, and that adds cost.

For urban commercial use, having range is the key, because overall miles will be relatively low, and charging is more likely to require a wasteful diversion.

For private users, faster charging make longer distance travel more convenient, which increases the chance that they'll feel that they can make full use of the vehicle.

Charging time is also relevant to charging infrastructure provision, because slower charging lowers volume, which then increases total installation costs.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

Hyundai Kona US price is $36,450 minus incentives for 258-Mile CUV

 

[KarenRei]

Hyundai Kona US price is $36,450 minus incentives for 258-Mile CUV

Price as expected.
Limited availability as expected.
No surprises.

 

[30seconds]

pretty impressive price for that range

 

[KarenRei]

pretty impressive price for that range

With the tiny production volumes they're making (18,6k/yr), they could afford to give them away for free. If I recall correctly their goal is to double production volumes next year Which is still tiny, but at least not as irrelevant.

Unless a traditional automaker's EVs are a meaningful total fraction of their sales, their sale price should not be assumed to actually be connected to what it costs to produce.

Hyundai always does this - makes decent EVs at decent price points, but makes them hard to get outside of "target" markets (such as places where they get ZEV credits or the like), and with huge waiting lists. It's been like this for years with the Ioniq.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

With the tiny production volumes they're making (18,6k/yr), they could afford to give them away for free. If I recall correctly their goal is to double production volumes next year Which is still tiny, but at least not as irrelevant.

Unless a traditional automaker's EVs are a meaningful total fraction of their sales, their sale price should not be assumed to actually be connected to what it costs to produce.

Hyundai always does this - makes decent EVs at decent price points, but makes them hard to get outside of "target" markets (such as places where they get ZEV credits or the like), and with huge waiting lists. It's been like this for years with the Ioniq.

There may also be massive lithium supply shortages - raw material prices have increased significantly in recent times

 

[30seconds]

Yes, pretty clear that they don’t want to make this in volume & focused on pollution credits. Maybe it is cost, maybe it is battery supply.

Still the range per kWH is very good