EV-lutioin
Active Member
Mission E is a great looking car, if you are an 18 year old male or wish you were.
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i must say...if it happens this car will be cool too!
- Thread starter alehbaba
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OK not sure what's hanging you up on my posts on this but I never said the Mission E didn't look sexy. I think the design is very sleek, sexy and sporty (as in clearly a sports car). I think the front of the car in particular with it's high wheel area curves looks very much like a Corvette's (which I also think is a very sleek, sexy and sporty car just for the record). I also think the pointed front end adds to a more sporty look. Despite the Mission E not being a two-seater, I simply don't see many families chosing it over a Model S, which we all know has a great cabin safety rating (and we've seen from accounts on here how well it's done with passenger safety in accidents).
I wouldn't be a fan of those passenger doors on the Mission E for safety reasons already mentioned here in this thread and safety will always be a major concern of parents especially from side impacts given their kids will be riding in the cars. Would a parent care more about getting car seats in and out if that area could cave during an accident? Out of curiousity do you have young kids? What does your wife think of the Mission E as a family car? I totally get the design appeal of it and the thrill of driving a powerful sport car. Just don't see families as their target market. Not sure why the resistance to me thinking it doesn't look family-oriented, but try taking a page of different photo angles of it and show it to both male and female co-workers and see what they think.
As to looking family-oriented from my perspective? Well I guess a car that doesn't look like a target by police for speeding on the highway, a car that isn't going to get challenged by guys pulling up and wanting to drag race with it, a more traditional sedan look (which I'm sorry the Mission E doesn't to me) without being an SUV crossover. A car that mom's will feel comfortable driving their kids around in to activities and shopping and one they won't mind parking.
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The suicide doors with no b pillar won't be in a production Porsche, Porsche was proud of adding several hundred pounds to get their 5 star rating and pass that difficult 'side impact overlap test' that most cars fail. That's a lot of weight to add to an already heavy car just for that safety test that a B-pillar-less car would not pass.
Lots of family folk will buy the Mission. Same reason lots buy the Tesla, it different, and nice, and a worthy replacement for a 911 when you need back doors. They won't sell them to everybody, but considering it's priced like a 911 anyway they don't intend to; they know their target audience.
Lots of family folk will buy the Mission. Same reason lots buy the Tesla, it different, and nice, and a worthy replacement for a 911 when you need back doors. They won't sell them to everybody, but considering it's priced like a 911 anyway they don't intend to; they know their target audience.
whitex
Well-Known Member
I could ask my wife about Mission E, but I know the answer will be - for young kinds, nothing beats a van as it is specifically designed for that. My wife drove a Toyota Sienna until the kids became teenagers and now she drives a Model S. She had a brief time when she thought she wanted an SUV, but luckily before buying it I rented her a brand new Sequoia for a week, and a the end of that week we got a new Toyota Sienna instead. Oh, and no, Model X is not functionally equivalent of a van, it's basically more or less a Model S on higher suspension with fancy and impractical doors. Neither of us liked the Model X over the Model S btw even though we were waiting initially to get it - shorter range and very impractical doors (X doors took forever and during the test drive it took multiple tries to open/close sometimes - van doors open in a fraction of the time and open/close reliably every time; living in Settle where it rains a lot, fast reliable doors on a vehicle for kids are important).
You are right about safety being important, but we don't know the safety rating of the Mission E. Lack of B-pillar may be able to worked around with some solution, kind of like when Tesla removed the middle roof support when they introduced the all glass roof - they claim it did not change the strength of the roof at all. IMO, if a car is functionally equivalent, most of the dads will go for the sportier one, and a large population of moms too. As for being a "police magnet" I think it's an urban myth, just like the myth of red cars paying higher insurance and getting more tickets (Progressive Auto Insurance - An Introduction). I've driven sports cars and SUV's, Tesla has attracted more attention than any of them. Thanks to Elon, most people thing all Tesla's are 0-60 in 2.5s cars. Personally I don't see any difference in the number of people trying to race my Model S vs. a Porsche 911 I had in the past - most drivers recognize they'd lose and specifically accelerate slowly from the lights to make sure there is no mistaking the fact that they are NOT trying to race. I had a lot more people trying to race my VW Passat than either a Model S or a Porsche.
So, I think there is a large overlap between Model S and Mission E markets. Provided they can make it as safe and functional, Mission E may win out in some placed just by the fact that it's a fresh look. With Model S being the same since 2012, around where I live they seem to be quite common and don't stand out as much (as do Porsches and BWM's and Mercs, no shortage of those around Seattle/Bellevue area). Personally I don't care about the standing out, but a lot of people do.
FutureShock
Best Coast Denizen
I think that's about right. I look at the Mission E and think, "Oh, that looks like an electric 911. Nice 2+2 seat sports car."
Cool (I like 911s), but not really the same market as a large sedan. Even a gosh-darn sexy large sedan like the Model S.
Thus, I think the overlap between the markets for the two cars will be pretty limited, despite the way the media is trying to pitch it (i.e. 'ZOMG, it's a TESLA KILLER!!!!"... lol, isn't everything, when you're trying to churn out clickbait?
).But while that may be a reach, the Mission E should be competition for the New Roadster that's supposed to show up eventually.
Now THAT'S a hype story I would actually buy into, come 2019-2020 or whenever both cars show up.
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lux_cars
Member
Do we know it’s dimensions? Is this Mission-E actually supposed to be a whole lot smaller than the Panamera/Model S? I was under the impression that it would be a similar size to the Panamera.
whitex
Well-Known Member
You've obviously never seen 911 back seats. They are tiny. I drove one I kept a second car (suv) for when I wanted to do bigger shopping or take more than 1 passenger with me.
Mission E back seats look nothing like it. The back looks like the same size seats as the front, so like the Panamera, or Model S.
FutureShock
Best Coast Denizen
When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me...
IOf course I've seen 911 back seats. And I did not say the Mission E was *exactly* the same as the 911. But styling-wise, the influence is unmistakable, and certainly intentionally so. And given the roofline, I very much doubt it's as roomy in the back as a full-size sedan.
Because it's not really trying to be one. It does look like a potentially pretty nice EV version of the 911 though. Or some sort of odd-but-cute 911 and Panamera love-child.
And if you're Porsche, it makes perfect sense to try to leverage an iconic shape/styling and its reputation in sports cars to make an EV product that will be, in their eyes, a likely hit (though sales volumes for $85K sports cars are never going to all that high).
They need their early attempts in this space not to flop, or their rep in the EV segment will be damaged and things will be much harder going forward. So, play it safe, and leverage well-known existing assets. Nothing terribly wrong with that, though it woud've been interesting to see what they would've done with a clean-sheet approach.
So yeah. it's a nice-looking largely 911-ish EV sports car that may also be trying to play a bit to the Panamera crowd. It's not truly a full-size sedan competitor, and it doesn't look like it's strictly even trying to be.
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whitex
Well-Known Member
We'll have to wait and see. Personally I think Mission E and Model S will have quite an overlap in customers. If you gave Porsche access to the supercharger networks (nothing to do with car design) they'd be direct competitors. Now, one thing to note, I am talking about 2019 market which where Model S is not the only practical range EV. I agree with you that a market for an $85K sports car, or even a sedan, is limited. The Model S market until now has been larger because it was the only EV with 200+ range and a usable long distance charger network. Model S market will shrink once Model 3 is readily available and once competitors, such as Mission E, will come to market.When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me...
Of course I've seen 911 back seats. And I did not say the Mission E was *exactly* the same as the 911. But styling-wise, the influence is unmistakable, and certainly intentionally so. And given the roofline, I very much doubt it's as roomy in the back as a full-size sedan.
Because it's not really trying to be one. It does look like a potentially pretty nice EV version of the 911 though. Or some sort of odd-but-cute 911 and Panamera love-child.
And if you're Porsche, it makes perfect sense to try to leverage an iconic shape/styling and its reputation in sports cars to make an EV product that will be, in their eyes, a likely hit (though sales volumes for $85K sports cars are never going to all that high).
They need their early attempts in this space not to flop, or their rep in the EV segment will be damaged and things will be much harder going forward. So, play it safe, and leverage well-known existing assets. Nothing terribly wrong with that, though it woud've been interesting to see what they would've done with a clean-sheet approach.
So yeah. it's a nice-looking largely 911-ish EV sports car that may also be trying to play a bit to the Panamera crowd. It's not truly a full-size sedan competitor, and it doesn't look like it's strictly even trying to be.
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FutureShock
Best Coast Denizen
Eh, I dunno. The Bolt has long range, and is as cheap as the Model 3, yet it hasn't really put a dent in Model S sales.
Yes, you could argue that's only because GM doesn't have a nationwide supercharger network yet, but neither does VW/Porsche (they have plans to construct one, but even by 2019 it'll have far fewer stations than Tesla's SC network). Which by your own logic would then mean that the MIssion E won't make a dent in Model S sales, either.
Additionally, you seem to thinking of the EV market as a zero-sum game, when it's actually an expanding pie... maybe even a rapidly expanding one (which is why so many automakers are jumping in now, yes?). EV sales are only about 1 percent of the US auto market, so, there's literally TONS of room to expand.
So, Model S sales could be awesome, and the Mission E could sell well, simultaneously... even if you assume their prospective markets overlap a lot (though I don't, really). And so could the Bolt, Model 3, and anything else long-range and attractive to the EV consumer that comes along. It's a growing market.
See what I'm saying?:
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lux_cars
Member
I too feel there will be overlap, both are mid to large premium sedans with comparable pricing (though Mission-e will cost more esp. w. options).
The EV market is growing for sure but Model S will need to keep up in certain areas, primarily interior and build quality. Porsche will have better handling and sustained performance while Tesla will have supercharger network advantage, at least initially. If anything, the Model 3 is likely to cannibalize MS more given that the MS is twice the price for essentially an additional 10 inch in length and an extra screen, unless Tesla manages to differentiate it more and make it a true flagship.
The EV market is growing for sure but Model S will need to keep up in certain areas, primarily interior and build quality. Porsche will have better handling and sustained performance while Tesla will have supercharger network advantage, at least initially. If anything, the Model 3 is likely to cannibalize MS more given that the MS is twice the price for essentially an additional 10 inch in length and an extra screen, unless Tesla manages to differentiate it more and make it a true flagship.
FutureShock
Best Coast Denizen
I continue to have my doubts on that. The Model S is unambiguously a large sporty sedan, while the Mission E looks like either a sports car or something that's trying to split the difference between one and a sedan.
On top of that, I know folks who won't buy a VW-company EV simply because it's a VW company (i.e. 'DieselGate'/"they don't care about the environment"), or because it's not an American company... etc. etc. Whereas Tesla's green credentials seem to be in order and it's a US company.
Some overlap is unavoidable, but a lot? Eh, I dunno. Let's see some customer survey data that backs that up. Maybe CleanTechnica or someone would consent to run a poll.
Agree on interior quality... some do complain that the Model S interior doesn't 'feel' quite expensive enough.
Build quality? Not sure about that. The MS had some rough early years but now has improved to average reliability in Consumer Reports surveys. Which is where Porsche ranks, incidentally.
Performance? Mission E will allegedly be 0-60 in 3.5 secs. That's fast, and faster than a standard MS, but it still gets blown away by a Ludicrous or 'P' model MS.
The Mod 3 isn't quite as cheap as ppl think it is... for instance, if you want the 310-mile range (and most ppl likely will), it's a $44K car, not a $35K one. Then add in Autopilot for $5K more. Want AWD like all Model S's now have standard? That's an option that's coming for the Mod3, and if I had to guess, would be another $4-5K or so. Smart Air Suspension, like all Model S's now have? That too is an option that's coming, and maybe that's another $4-5K too, as part of some options package.
Total it all up, and you wind up with a car that's not all that far off of a base MS 75D in price. While still being smaller, less roomy, and significantly slower. And, of course, there's the whole 'status/sexy' thing too, for better or worse.
Now, I'm not dissing the Model 3... by all accounts and advance reviews, it's a sweet car. But it isn't 'far cheaper' unless you're willing to give up a lot of things that are now standard in the Model S, plus of course there are things intrinsic to the MS that you'll never get in the Model 3.
Thus, I expect only modest sales cannibalization, especially as the reality sets in, i.e. no matter the hype, the Model 3 really isn't a 'Model S for half the price'.
But, it is more attractive than a Bolt, for sure. And it will sell like hotcakes (obviously already is, looking at pre-orders).
All that said, sure, I wouldn't mind further bumps to the MS. Can only hope Elon's in a generous mood along those lines. If he made the base MS an 85kWh, I'd probably buy a new one tomorrow, instead of being all skin-flinty and waiting around for that 'perfect' CPO.
Which, come to think of it, is another advantage of the MS over the M:E and Mod3... you can let someone else pay the initial depreciation.
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JonathanDandrea
Member
Porsche Mission E Caught Testing with Teslas - Motor Trend
Lost a lot of its sexiness and you gotta love the fake exhaust tips......but compitetion is always good
Lost a lot of its sexiness and you gotta love the fake exhaust tips......but compitetion is always good
lux_cars
Member
I know Porsche designs are quite conservative but if production model were to look like this prototype, that would be disappointing. Maybe it’s a Panamera mule? Or the sexiness is still hidden under the cladding?
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Did anyone notice the Tesla(s) in the background ... Porsche must be reverse engineering and benchmarking the Model S
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