I ordered a Performance 3. The car at delivery was an AWD.

[Knightshade]

Side note: on every of the last 3 pages it seems like people are saying the exact same thing.

I do wonder if service centers have records of the testing done on each VIN’s drive units. It would be cool to know that my AWD NonP met tolerances for a P (it would imply that the DUs will last longer).

So there's 2 possibilities really...

All units meet P specs. In which case they might bin the highest scoring ones into known Ps to reduce warranty costs slightly, but any AWD can be flashed to a P no problem. This seems to be supported by the numerous random folks who have had that happen on their cars.

In that case, there's no list of which motors are "really" P since they all are.

The other bonus to Tesla is they don't have different parts streams for repairs. A DU is a DU.


Or... many don't meet P specs, and go into AWD cars. In which case all the AWD-turned-into P folks got SUPER lucky they happened to get AWDs with "better" motors... and in which case Tesla would have different parts streams for replacing DUs in a P versus an AWD/RWD vehicle....

In which case they'd need different PNs on DUs to enable those parts streams. And the list you want would exist.

But since the VIN tells us AWD and P get the same motors that seems unlikely.

 

[SoCalGuy]

So there's 2 possibilities really...

All units meet P specs. In which case they might bin the highest scoring ones into known Ps to reduce warranty costs slightly, but any AWD can be flashed to a P no problem. This seems to be supported by the numerous random folks who have had that happen on their cars.

In that case, there's no list of which motors are "really" P since they all are.

The other bonus to Tesla is they don't have different parts streams for repairs. A DU is a DU.


Or... many don't meet P specs, and go into AWD cars. In which case all the AWD-turned-into P folks got SUPER lucky they happened to get AWDs with "better" motors... and in which case Tesla would have different parts streams for replacing DUs in a P versus an AWD/RWD vehicle....

In which case they'd need different PNs on DUs to enable those parts streams. And the list you want would exist.

But since the VIN tells us AWD and P get the same motors that seems unlikely.

Or option 3... Tesla upgraded NonP to P knowing that they’ll likely have to replace DUs in a couple of years but who cares because 3Q profitability is important!

 

[Jgdixon]

@gambit48
There was no window sticker, it is not compulsory in Canada!!

I had one in my glovebox

 

[mongo]

Or... many don't meet P specs, and go into AWD cars. In which case all the AWD-turned-into P folks got SUPER lucky they happened to get AWDs with "better" motors...

Except all the people ordered P. So it can also be the car were Ps with the incorrect AWD sw setting.

Different part numbers would be handy, but VIN and motor serial number are sufficient.

 

[RTF5.8]

For the guys that paid for P cars, does it bother you you have no documentation you actually bought a P? Sure it's been upgraded by the dealer, but wouldn't most people want a sticker that actually says it's a Performance model? I personally wouldn't accept an awd that someone just came out and flashed. After what has been happening at Tesla lately, does anyone actually believe they know(or care) what exact motor went into a random awd car so it could be used as P car? Maybe Elons intentions were to bin these motors, but it just doesn't seem its required and being done.

 

[mongo]

Just reread the VIN decoder. Performance is called out separately. Given the changes that happened with the option packages, maybe P+ are the binned motors? The original binned tweet chain also called out the 20 inch wheels and such...
In which case AWD and P are intechangable, but P+ is more efficient...

 

[Knightshade]

Except all the people ordered P. So it can also be the car were Ps with the incorrect AWD sw setting.

Different part numbers would be handy, but VIN and motor serial number are sufficient.

At least one AWD buyer received P software without having ordered a P FWIW.

Apart from that, different part numbers are neccesary if they ever plan to repair the car.

When replacing a DU, how do you order the "special" DUs nobody can prove exist if they don't have a distinct PN?

(and VIN makes no distinction between AWD and P)

 

[Knightshade]

Just reread the VIN decoder. Performance is called out separately.

Nope, it sure is not called out seperately on the 3.

It is on the S, because the P has different motors there. Not so on the 3.

 

[whatthe2]

For the guys that paid for P cars, does it bother you you have no documentation you actually bought a P? Sure it's been upgraded by the dealer, but wouldn't most people want a sticker that actually says it's a Performance model? I personally wouldn't accept an awd that someone just came out and flashed. After what has been happening at Tesla lately, does anyone actually believe they know(or care) what exact motor went into a random awd car so it could be used as P car? Maybe Elons intentions were to bin these motors, but it just doesn't seem its required and being done.

I do have documentation, it’s in the MVPA. I can count on one hand, without using any fingers when I’ve needed the window sticker.

 

[mongo]

Nope, it sure is not called out seperately on the 3.


It is on the S, because the P has different motors there. Not so on the 3.

Dang it, the multi-use decoder got me again. Someday I'll get it right.

At least one AWD buyer received P software without having ordered a P FWIW.

Apart from that, different part numbers are neccesary if they ever plan to repair the car.

When replacing a DU, how do you order the "special" DUs nobody can prove exist if they don't have a distinct PN?

(and VIN makes no distinction between AWD and P)

Thanks for data point on AWD upgrade.

Right, the VIN doesn't spell it out directly, but Tesla's system would know the version of 3 it is. Concider that P+ has a different suspension and brakes that are not called out in the VIN characters.

I agree, unique PN or other identifier are needed to order the right part.

 

[RTF5.8]

I do have documentation, it’s in the MVPA. I can count on one hand, without using any fingers when I’ve needed the window sticker.

Agreed. My point was looking at it from a buyer's perspective. I am interested in purchasing a P3D, and I would like a sticker that actually showed the correct options from Tesla, not something they modified after the fact to make it suit my order to get a delivery. From a consumer's standpoint, if this binning really is happening, I want to the upgraded binned motors. That's what I payed a considerable amount for and that's what i expect.

 

[whatthe2]

Agreed. My point was looking at it from a buyer's perspective. I am interested in purchasing a P3D, and I would like a sticker that actually showed the correct options from Tesla, not something they modified after the fact to make it suit my order to get a delivery. From a consumer's standpoint, if this binning really is happening, I want to the upgraded binned motors. That's what I payed a considerable amount for and that's what i expect.

At this point no one knows if the binning statement is actually correct. There's speculation the binned motors are just for P3+ and that all other AWD motors are just fine for P3-. With the number of times we have heard this happen, I have to believe all AWD motors are just fine for P3- as I don't see Tesla putting themselves in a position to have to replace a bunch of motors that shouldn't have been in P3- cars.

So I look at this no differently than a car that didn't have EAP originally, and was later unlocked to meet the buyers needs.

But it's your money, so if having the right sticker is important, then you certainly should get that.

 

[Krazaak]

At this point no one knows if the binning statement is actually correct. There's speculation the binned motors are just for P3+ and that all other AWD motors are just fine for P3-. With the number of times we have heard this happen, I have to believe all AWD motors are just fine for P3- as I don't see Tesla putting themselves in a position to have to replace a bunch of motors that shouldn't have been in P3- cars.

That actually makes the most sense, since we know that the Performance Upgrade Package comes with a different chassis designation, which could refer both to the suspension and brake changes as well as binned drive units to support the higher maximum speed. A "binned" drive unit is probably more important to supporting the higher horsepower and rpm required at top speed than it is the torque required for acceleration. Especially since the torque has to be electronically limited to keep it from just burning the tires off at launch.

Elon's binned motors comment was before the change to the trim line-up that split the Performance Upgrade Package out as a separate option and there's no guarantee that a Model 3 Performance trim without the upgrade package has motors that differ in any way from a standard AWD.

 

[BestHand]

I ordered non-performance AWD with 18" Aero. My window sticker shows Performance Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive. Car computer shows AWD. Somebody posted already similar case.

 

[jbcarioca]

I wonder...If you are in an accident, and your car is totaled, does the insurance payout reflect the AWD or the P-AWD? What about the Performance add-on?

Most US insurance company payouts tend to be based on MSRP if new, and NADA (or another similar source) if nto new.
That means that if new, the payout will reflect P or P+ because of the invoice. The vin should not be in conflict with the invoice but numerous invoice items may not be included with any given manufacturer vin.

 

[djgarrett21]

At this point no one knows if the binning statement is actually correct. There's speculation the binned motors are just for P3+ and that all other AWD motors are just fine for P3-. With the number of times we have heard this happen, I have to believe all AWD motors are just fine for P3- as I don't see Tesla putting themselves in a position to have to replace a bunch of motors that shouldn't have been in P3- cars.

So I look at this no differently than a car that didn't have EAP originally, and was later unlocked to meet the buyers needs.

But it's your money, so if having the right sticker is important, then you certainly should get that.

If binning is even happening happening I highly doubt binned motors are only going to P+:

-Tesla is going to offer a performance package upgrade kit which can be installed on P- cars by Tesla service. This package would unlock Track Mode for P- cars. This package wouldn't be possible if binned motors were required for higher performance (assuming P- got non-binned and P+ did).
-There is no evidence that P+ and P- cars are built to different specs. Only significant upgrades to P+ are wheels, brakes, and suspension.
-Performance limitations during track driving is mainly due to thermal management/cooling of the battery and drive components.
-From an engineering/manufacturing standpoint it makes much more sense that Tesla designs/specs a single front and rear drive unit that works for all M3 variants; less costly, simplifies manufacturing/service/repairs, streamlines production. Making the difference in performance a function of software is much easier to implement.

 

[mongo]

-Performance limitations during track driving is mainly due to thermal management/cooling of the battery and drive components.
-From an engineering/manufacturing standpoint it makes much more sense that Tesla designs/specs a single front and rear drive unit that works for all M3 variants; less costly, simplifies manufacturing/service/repairs, streamlines production. Making the difference in performance a function of software is much easier to implement.

I agree with the first point, with the addition that peak torque can also be limited by thermal constraints. I do not think the second point is accurate (beyond being simpler if there is only one part).

Mechanically, rotor balance is much more critical for P+. Bearing loading increases as the square of RPM.
MPH/ RPM difference 140 to 155 : 10.7% increase, bearing load 23%

Thermally, there is the heat generated by the switching FETs which is a result of process variation by the semiconductor manufacturer.
Then there is the thermal dissipation determined by the interface between the switching devices and the heat sink.

Part variance: STMicro SiC FET 650V, on resistance: 18 to 26 mOhm: thermal variance: 44%
Thermal resistance to heat sink (surface finish and paste thickness: 20% (guess)
Total variance thermal: 1.44*1.20=73% variation (note: dissipation gets worse with temperature/ self heating, so the effect is amplified)

Balancing all motors to a 23% tighter tolerance, and designing the electronics with an additional 73% derating to ensure all units meet P+ performance would be a waste of time/ money.
Take volumes being feasible, better to build with looser controls then use the best balanced and lowest dissipation parts for the performance versions.

 

[Knightshade]

Part variance: STMicro SiC FET 650V, on resistance: 18 to 26 mOhm: thermal variance: 44%
Thermal resistance to heat sink (surface finish and paste thickness: 20% (guess)
Total variance thermal: 1.44*1.20=73% variation (note: dissipation gets worse with temperature/ self heating, so the effect is amplified)
.

Curious where the 44% number is from? The 20% number you admit is a guess but you don't say that on the 44% so is there a source for that?

(I also think the 20% guess is wildly high from my experience with mass produced PC and their CPUs FWIW)

 

[mongo]

Curious where the 44% number is from? The 20% number you admit is a guess but you don't say that on the 44% so is there a source for that?

(I also think the 20% guess is wildly high from my experience with mass produced PC and their CPUs FWIW)

The 44% is 26mOhm/18mOhm. Due to multiple parts in parallel, the exact part stress variation is not so clear cut (3 high resistance and 1 low resistance part for instance).

Could definitely be off on the 20% number, hence the call out. Given the small dimension desired for a thermal interface, seemed plausible. However I may have erred in attributing the paste variance to the entire thermal resistance.

 

[Jedi2155]

If binning is even happening happening I highly doubt binned motors are only going to P+:

-Tesla is going to offer a performance package upgrade kit which can be installed on P- cars by Tesla service. This package would unlock Track Mode for P- cars. This package wouldn't be possible if binned motors were required for higher performance (assuming P- got non-binned and P+ did).

Whose to say that the "track mode" upgrade won't require a drive train replacement? Again, all speculation, and we really don't know if binning is going on.