I-Pace vs P3D

[Gavyne]

Agree Jag has a big question mark next to the battery and drivetrain.
On other hand Tesla has a huge question mark next to everything except battery and drivetrain.

bs, Tesla's tech is far ahead of Jag when it comes to autopilot, interface, navigation, and OTA updates. Also safety, all 3 of Tesla's car models are the top 3 safest cars on the road. With Model 3 being the safest to a point that they almost need to create a new curve to grade the other vehicles. I would say tech and safety are two big question marks for Jag as well.

In this thread you are constantly over-valuing the I-PACE and under valuing Model 3. You can say Tesla have a question mark next to paint finish and delivery experience, but I'm not sure you could go further than that without being completely and utterly biased. Let's not get too carried away propping up a car (I-PACE) that has already been delayed for reasons Jag won't tell you. And you do know there have already been 2-3 recalls spanning across multiple 2018 Jaguar models right?

Just saying, for the same or higher price of a P3D, you are buying a car inferior to P3D in every way other than interior finish and a hatch back design. If that's your type of wise investment, then by all means, have at it. It's your money. I'm glad you like the I-PACE. I just don't understand why you are here talking down on Tesla and Model 3.

 

[thewishmaster]

Agree Jag has a big question mark next to the battery and drivetrain.
On other hand Tesla has a huge question mark next to everything except battery and drivetrain.

Maybe, but Tesla has been stepping up over time. My P3D feels higher quality than the S85 I have as a loaner right now, both inside and out. Only a few years between and the S85 feels last-gen. Re: non-drivetrain quality, my last car was a BMW in the same price range, and random interior bits broke on their own without much use whatsoever. One of passenger air vent tabs just... fell off. The rear sunshade stopped retracting on the 3rd time I accidentally pressed the button. Lumbar adjustment control broke. Subjected to multiple recalls. I had a Toyota a long time ago and (just for example) an interior door handle snapped off. Nothing is perfect, but if my Tesla is as good as that, I consider it a success.

My experience is quite opposite.

YMMV of course, but that is the problem - there's no standard of what to expect when you walk into a dealership to buy a car. Speaking of which, your sales experience vs. service experience will vary. With smaller brands like Jaguar, you also have a smaller network of dealerships to service your car, and will they all be equipped to service the i-Pace? Would someone get turned away because a specific location doesn't have the right equipment/techs?

 

[cfttester]

bs, Tesla's tech is far ahead of Jag when it comes to autopilot, interface, navigation, and OTA updates. Also safety, all 3 of Tesla's car models are the top 3 safest cars on the road. With Model 3 being the safest to a point that they almost need to create a new curve to grade the other vehicles. I would say tech and safety are two big question marks for Jag as well.

1. Autopilot - Auto lane change and overtaking is cool (except this story with 101->85 exit). The rest is either called TACC with lane assist and available or some beta feature you are testing with your life. I hope you are aware the Tesla's "autopilot" is not a #1.
2. Navigation - Jag could do a better job - it's laggy
3. Updates - Jag has it too

In this thread you are constantly over-valuing the I-PACE and under valuing Model 3. You can say Tesla have a question mark next to paint finish and delivery experience, but I'm not sure you could go further than that without being completely and utterly biased. Let's not get too carried away propping up a car (I-PACE) that has already been delayed for reasons Jag won't tell you. And you do know there have already been 2-3 recalls spanning across multiple 2018 Jaguar models right?

You forgot to mention assembly quality of M3. What is the official initial quality metrics? 80% of M3 had to visit service in first moth or something like that? Magna Steyr on other hand was making cars before you and I were born as you may know.

Just saying, for the same or higher price of a P3D, you are buying a car inferior to P3D in every day other than interior finish and a hatch back design. If that's your type of wise investment, then by all means, have at it. It's your money.

Finish, assembly quality, option availability, customer service, etc.
Car is always a bad investment (with some notable exceptions, some of them are Jaguars, but non of them are Teslas )

 

[MXWing]

Agree Jag has a big question mark next to the battery and drivetrain.
On other hand Tesla has a huge question mark next to everything except battery and drivetrain.

What's the most important part of an EV?

DOH

 

[voip-ninja]

Over on the Bimmerfest forums a lot of people have been talking up the i-pace a lot.

i-pace looks like a great car if someone is after an electric vehicle with pretty reasonable range, traditional interior controls and a top notch bespoke cabin, there is absolutely no question that Jaguar is going to deliver in all of these areas. I would also hazard that Jaguar's paint shop has their act together compared to Tesla and we aren't going to see horror stories of new i-pace owners finding a bunch of dust nibs, fisheyes, and other imperfections on their new rides.

Where there are real questions about i-pace is battery & powertrain quality and technology. Tesla have an enormous head start in this area and are literally years ahead of others. Is Jaguar warranting the battery against degrading? If so for how long and what % reduction?

Tesla seems to be quite a bit beyond Jaguar in these key areas;

• Battery technology
• Efficiency/Range
• DC rapid charging technology
• charging infrastructure
• Experience building high torque output electric motors
• Autopilot
• Affordable (Dual motor with autopilot for $60K, i-pace starts at over $70K).

Jaguar is ahead in these areas;

• Fit/Finish
• Interior quality
• Style choices (color options)
• Marque (prestige factor)
• SUV form factor

I view i-pace as more of a Model Y competitor and bravo to Jag for beating Tesla to the punch by offering a compact SUV before Tesla could even demonstrate a prototype.

It remains to be seen how well the Jaguar holds up. Ironically the one thing Jaguar has a real black eye about with people who have followed Jaguar for years is the lack of quality of their electrical systems. Hopefully those issues are behind them now that they are offering first EV.

 

[Uncle Paul]

I had a 12 cyl Jaguar for a while. It was absolutely beautiful inside and our, but was still a piece of crap.

Rode smooth, like a dream, but was poorly assembled and was terribly unreliable. Sucked gas like crazy, but was not very fast.

My X only has regular fit and finish, but it is by far the best driving experience of all the vehicles I have owned.

 

[MXWing]

Jaguar is ahead in these areas;

• Fit/Finish
• Interior quality
• Style choices (color options)
• Marque (prestige factor)
• SUV form factor

Tons of assumptions and leap of faiths will need to be made as well.

• Will Jaguar deliver your car iPace in a reasonable timeline? There are already reports of owners pushed back 1-2 months.
• Are all Jaguar dealerships prepared to service the iPace?
• In the evident of crashes or issues, what is the time to source parts and perform repairs?
• Workable real life range? I can drive a Model 3 as hard as I want and have zero concerns about charging no matter where I go.

 

[voip-ninja]

I had a 12 cyl Jaguar for a while. It was absolutely beautiful inside and our, but was still a piece of crap.

Rode smooth, like a dream, but was poorly assembled and was terribly unreliable. Sucked gas like crazy, but was not very fast.

My X only has regular fit and finish, but it is by far the best driving experience of all the vehicles I have owned.

I'm not aware of anyone who has test driven the i-pace who hasn't simply raved about it. Journalists also reported doing a track event with the i-pace in which they were able to drive the car at 10/10 on the track nearly to range exhaustion and no power throttling of any kind. If true, quite an accomplishment as even on the 3, with all of Tesla's latest experience thrown in, there is still some (although minor) power throttling of the car due to heating.

More competition is good for everyone and competition in this area will push Tesla even harder, which is not a bad thing.

 

[voip-ninja]

I should add as an addendum that we don't know what Jaguar's approach is going to do to the life of the batteries. They might be sacrificing long term battery health in exchange for short term performance.

 

[MXWing]

I should add as an addendum that we don't know what Jaguar's approach is going to do to the life of the batteries. They might be sacrificing long term battery health in exchange for short term performance.

Tagging a EE with batteries @Jedi2155 to get his thoughts.

Honestly, you reminded me that the iPace mislead when doing its first drag race test video.

It ran the iPace against a corked Model X.

The iPace is a Model 3/S/Y competitor.

X is another animal with seating of 7 and capability of towing an airplane.

 

[cfttester]

Tagging a EE with batteries @Jedi2155 to get his thoughts.

Honestly, you reminded me that the iPace mislead when doing its first drag race test video.

It ran the iPace against a corked Model X.

The iPace is a Model 3/S/Y competitor.

X is another animal with seating of 7 and capability of towing an airplane.

I 100% agree. Model X is and likely Model S too is bigger, more capable and more expensive.

 

[Abstrakt1]

The Taycan is the only EV that really intrigues me outside of Tesla's. I think that will be the first car to really show potential for competitive threat. It has the range and speed of a Tesla and it is one of the coolest looking cars ever if the prototypes stick. Of course the real challenge is that Tesla is always a step ahead of the competition. Matching today's Tesla specs two years from now means that Tesla has another two years to improve as well and Tesla advances much quicker than the traditional car companies.

 

[Glamisduner]

From my research, Jags are typically problematic cars. One of the common issues being electrical issues. So hey lets build an electric car!

Not thanks, I'll pass on that one. Maybe I'd chance it in a few years once we see some proven battery tech. I already worry a little bout Tesla's new cell's

Other than my personal reservations, it might be worth considering.

 

[Roentgen]

That’s some high quality fanboism.

Fanboism? Troll much?

I'm not extolling any virtues of Tesla in my post. Just extrapolating your opinion from your multiple posts, I think most telling is your post I quoted. You'd pay over half the price ($30K you said) of the Model 3 just to avoid Tesla. And you hate the Tesla direct marketing model. Unless I'm misinterpreting? In many of your multiple posts across multiple threads you disparage Tesla quality (or lack thereof) and say that it wouldn't happen in a typical dealership model. In this thread alone, you've claimed 4/5 of your "close friends" have had to take their cars in for service within the first week. Your hyperbole is tiresome. I know that many Model 3 owners myself, and questioned them extensively on any issues before committing to my own (which has been fine - not flawless, but acceptable).

Tesla has it's large share of problems, I'll agree. But you're turning a blind eye to the real advantages of a real car you can buy RIGHT NOW that is significantly cheaper (assuming you stick to your assertion that you're not interested in AWD or higher) than the IPACE which you cannot currently buy. You claim logic, but defy it in each of your arguments.

No fanboism here. You have an agenda, and you're just trollololololing.

 

[clostridium]

Please, please, don’t bring the supercharging network to this. I’m driving in the car every day, yet I’m charging on a public charger maybe once per year. And I’m not an exception...

By the way, try to charge your M3 on a free fast charger provided by my company

It's funny that you don't want people to bring up the supercharging network when that is actually the most important difference. If you aren't driving far enough to use up the battery (i.e. not road tripping distances farther than your range) I suppose it doesn't matter. If you are planning to do that you really will have a hard time doing it right now in any vehicle other than a Tesla. The closest thing to a comparable option I've seen covered is what Porsche is talking about and that is some time off in the future and as of yet not demonstrated to work for the longer term even if it was widely available.

I'm curious what "normal car experience" means? Is that a reference to the desire to wanting lots of hardware buttons in the interior? Because in terms of driving while I've never driven the i-pace I'd expect the driving experience to be similar to other EVs I have driven like the Bolt and Teslas.

Another open question with the Jaguar is how reliability will work out. That brand has not fared well in reliability ratings. I hope that this car is the exception because more viable EVs on the market is good for everyone but it is early to tell.

 

[cfttester]

From my research, Jags are typically problematic cars. One of the common issues being electrical issues. So hey lets build an electric car!

Not thanks, I'll pass on that one. Maybe I'd chance it in a few years once we see some proven battery tech. I already worry a little bout Tesla's new cell's

Other than my personal reservations, it might be worth considering.

Jaguar initial quality metrics - 150 issues reported per 100 cars over first 90 days. It’s about 50% worst than average.
Tesla initial quality - decided to not participate (to save the chart from reaping I guess)

 

[voip-ninja]

From my research, Jags are typically problematic cars. One of the common issues being electrical issues. So hey lets build an electric car!

Not thanks, I'll pass on that one. Maybe I'd chance it in a few years once we see some proven battery tech. I already worry a little bout Tesla's new cell's

Other than my personal reservations, it might be worth considering.

Tesla's new cells are more than likely going to prove even better than the previous generation. Nobody has better battery cell tech than Tesla and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I don't know if Jag is using individual cells or if they went in the 'pouch' direction (think cell phone batteries) to cut down on costs.

 

[cfttester]

Fanboism? Troll much?

I'm not extolling any virtues of Tesla in my post. Just extrapolating your opinion from your multiple posts, I think most telling is your post I quoted. You'd pay over half the price ($30K you said) of the Model 3 just to avoid Tesla. And you hate the Tesla direct marketing model. Unless I'm misinterpreting? In many of your multiple posts across multiple threads you disparage Tesla quality (or lack thereof) and say that it wouldn't happen in a typical dealership model. In this thread alone, you've claimed 4/5 of your "close friends" have had to take their cars in for service within the first week. Your hyperbole is tiresome. I know that many Model 3 owners myself, and questioned them extensively on any issues before committing to my own (which has been fine - not flawless, but acceptable).

Tesla has it's large share of problems, I'll agree. But you're turning a blind eye to the real advantages of a real car you can buy RIGHT NOW that is significantly cheaper (assuming you stick to your assertion that you're not interested in AWD or higher) than the IPACE which you cannot currently buy. You claim logic, but defy it in each of your arguments.

No fanboism here. You have an agenda, and you're just trollololololing.

I will get some extra car for the extra $30k too. For example AWD and HUD and adjustable suspension. But about $5k would go into the brand avoidance . What is wrong with that?
I do believe that the vertical integration in general and direct sales only model are flawed. Is it wrong for me to have this opinion?

 

[Kuhz]

Chademo is awesome and pretty fast at ~50kw. Until you experience 118kw in a Model 3

 

[cfttester]

It's funny that you don't want people to bring up the supercharging network when that is actually the most important difference. If you aren't driving far enough to use up the battery (i.e. not road tripping distances farther than your range) I suppose it doesn't matter. If you are planning to do that you really will have a hard time doing it right now in any vehicle other than a Tesla. The closest thing to a comparable option I've seen covered is what Porsche is talking about and that is some time off in the future and as of yet not demonstrated to work for the longer term even if it was widely available.

I'm curious what "normal car experience" means? Is that a reference to the desire to wanting lots of hardware buttons in the interior? Because in terms of driving while I've never driven the i-pace I'd expect the driving experience to be similar to other EVs I have driven like the Bolt and Teslas.

Another open question with the Jaguar is how reliability will work out. That brand has not fared well in reliability ratings. I hope that this car is the exception because more viable EVs on the market is good for everyone but it is early to tell.

Normal experience for me:
Ability to enable windshield whippers from the stearing column or see the turning signal is on, somewhere in front of me. Or even better, to see a blind spot warning on the mirror where I’m actually looking while changing lane. How much would it cost Tesla to do it right? Why is it wrong for me to expect that?
Check the pictures of ipace interior. Where do you see a lot of buttons?