I was skeptical...

[Pwdr Extreme]

Whew! After reading all of this my conclusion is quite simple and should be extremely simple for Tesla to implement, probably reducing most if not all of the "unintended acceleration" claims.

It's silly to have the cruise control lever engage speed by moving it in all three of the possible positions, ie: pushing down, lifting up, or pulling towards you. Tesla should be able to easily change the software so cruise will only engage when the lever is pulled towards you, something not likely to happen accidentally.

I've owned several Mercedes, and although I've never accidentally engaged cruise (or in my Tesla), I've always thought the system was a bit odd.

This of course is only my opinion

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Here is the update. The ranger looked at the logs the other day and didn't see anything out the norm, but to make sure he contacted the regional tesla engineer. The engineer concluded the same thing, and said the throttle never exceeded 25%. Guess I was an idiot for thinking the car had accelerated on its own.

After hearing this, here is my explanation. I turned the wheel left to drive up the angled curb and as I turned the wheel right to straighten out the car, the car moved abruptly due to the weight of the car and gravity. At that moment, I thought the car accelerated on its own and I was the victim of sudden unintended acceleration. Turns out I was wrong and I apologize for causing any concerns. I was skeptical before and now I will renew my skepticism.

Can a moderator update the original post to include the update?

Thank you for the update.

What interests me is the comment about throttle never exceeding 25%.

I thought the throttle was at 0%, i.e. you were not pressing throttle at all when this happened? Now it was at 25%?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Whew! After reading all of this my conclusion is quite simple and should be extremely simple for Tesla to implement, probably reducing most if not all of the "unintended acceleration" claims.

It's silly to have the cruise control lever engage speed by moving it in all three of the possible positions, ie: pushing down, lifting up, or pulling towards you. Tesla should be able to easily change the software so cruise will only engage when the lever is pulled towards you, something not likely to happen accidentally.

Yeah, I think there are a few usability "low hanging fruits" for Tesla to look into here. So a useful thread in any case.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Here is the update. The ranger looked at the logs the other day and didn't see anything out the norm, but to make sure he contacted the regional tesla engineer. The engineer concluded the same thing, and said the throttle never exceeded 25%. Guess I was an idiot for thinking the car had accelerated on its own.

After hearing this, here is my explanation. I turned the wheel left to drive up the angled curb and as I turned the wheel right to straighten out the car, the car moved abruptly due to the weight of the car and gravity. At that moment, I thought the car accelerated on its own and I was the victim of sudden unintended acceleration. Turns out I was wrong and I apologize for causing any concerns. I was skeptical before and now I will renew my skepticism.

Can a moderator update the original post to include the update?

That's what I was wondering/hinting at back in post #4. Sometimes a change in traction makes it feel like it's accelerating. I used to experience this for a split second in my 1997 CR-V whenever AWD would kick in.

Glad to hear you got an answer concerning your logs.

 

[bushburner]

Thank you for the update.

What interests me is the comment about throttle never exceeding 25%.

I thought the throttle was at 0%, i.e. you were not pressing throttle at all when this happened? Now it was at 25%?

I should have been more detailed. I gave them a time frame to pull the logs from and during that time frame (driving from home to my kid's school) I never exceeded 25% throttle.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I should have been more detailed. I gave them a time frame to pull the logs from and during that time frame (driving from home to my kid's school) I never exceeded 25% throttle.

Yes. However, what wasn't clear from your message was, was the car throttling 0% - according to logs - at the time you pressed on the brakes? I wasn't thinking anyone thought the car throttled 100% at any stage in any case? The question was whether or not it throttled at all at the moment of the incident, because you were not pressing the gas pedal at that stage?

This was just unclear, so interested in what the logs said at the moment of the perceived car starting to move on its own.

 

[bushburner]

Yes. However, what wasn't clear from your message was, was the car throttling 0% - according to logs - at the time you pressed on the brakes? I wasn't thinking anyone thought the car throttled 100% at any stage in any case? The question was whether or not it throttled at all at the moment of the incident, because you were not pressing the gas pedal at that stage?

This was just unclear, so interested in what the logs said at the moment of the perceived car starting to move on its own.

Well we never discussed that specific moment in question, so I can't say based on the logs if my foot was on the throttle or not. The main thing I was concerned about was if the car acted on its own and their conclusion was that they didn't see it in the logs. I didn't have an exact time so it was kind of hard to pinpoint what time it happened. I gave them a 15 minute time frame to pull the logs from.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Well we never discussed that specific moment in question, so I can't say based on the logs if my foot was on the throttle or not. The main thing I was concerned about was if the car acted on its own and their conclusion was that they didn't see it in the logs.

OK, thank you for the insight. Without that specific moment being discussed, it seems impossible to know whether or not the log readings match your experience from that moment in time (when it was felt the car moved on its own), though, which is unfortunate. For example whether it showed cruise control action, some level of throttling for some reason etc.

I'm not saying there had to be necessarily a fault, but as it stands, it seems we did not learn much about that particular moment from the log review regarding e.g. the usability points in this thread. Anyway, thanks a lot for trying and putting effort into this, I understand we can't always get all the info we'd like.

 

[bushburner]

OK, thank you for the insight. Without that specific moment being discussed, it seems impossible to know whether or not the log readings match your experience from that moment in time (when it was felt the car moved on its own), though, which is unfortunate. For example whether it showed cruise control action, some level of throttling for some reason etc.

I'm not saying there had to be necessarily a fault, but as it stands, it seems we did not learn much about that particular moment from the log review regarding e.g. the usability points in this thread. Anyway, thanks a lot for trying and putting effort into this, I understand we can't always get all the info we'd like.

Well, we can conclude that the car didn't accelerate on its own and tacc was never activated at any time during my drive.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Well, we can conclude that the car didn't accelerate on its own and tacc was never activated at any time during my drive.

OK, good to know about TACC. So it was not TACC that was activated at the time of the incident.

However, if throttle at the time of the incident was not revealed by the log review, I guess we can't be sure if the car thought some throttle action was happening at the moment in time you personally felt it was not? Am I getting this right? We don't know what percentage of throttle was at the time you took your foot from the pedals, then felt the car move and hit the brake?

If your actions and the actions of the car were not matched, how can we know the car did not accelerate on its own? I.e. if the logs were to show something normal-looking happening, which you would say did not happen?

Help me understand.

 

[bushburner]

OK, good to know about TACC. So it was not TACC that was activated at the time of the incident.

However, if throttle at the time of the incident was not revealed by the log review, I guess we can't be sure if the car thought some throttle action was happening at the moment in time you personally felt it was not? Am I getting this right? We don't know what percentage of throttle was at the time you took your foot from the pedals, then felt the car move and hit the brake?

If your actions and the actions of the car were not matched, how can we know the car did not accelerate on its own? I.e. if the logs were to show something normal-looking happening, which you would say did not happen?

Help me understand.

You are correct on that assessment. I just took their word that there were no anomaly (car accelerating on its own). I trust the ranger and have good rapport with him. But I guess we will never be 100% certain exactly what happened, unless I go over the logs with them step by step. With that being said, I'm fairly confident that the car coming down from the curb and creep being off is what caused the sensation of the car accelerating.

 

[rush6410]

Basically from no mode you go to mode A, but disabling mode A doesn't take you back to no mode at all, but it takes you to mode B instead. Clearly grounds for mode confusion.

Actually, isn't it more detailed and is not necessarily as simple as you represent.

Single stalk action engages TACC. Double pull to the stalk engages auto-steer and can start from two different scenarios; 1) TACC already engaged, 2) TACC not already engaged. So I would associate more with going to Mode A TACC, then Mode B Auto-Steer with the ability to engage both A and B concurrently. So, it makes sense that you have multiple scenarios that result in B being disabled, or A and B being disabled since they are separate modes or functions. I prefer having the ability to disengage auto-steer leaving TACC engaged. There are several vehicle indicators to the driver when dropping from A/B to B only. You tug of the wheel feeling the initial resistance to override B. Vehicle gives a audible sound. Vehicle does not slow signifying TACC is engaged. I believe, mainly because I do not recall, the audible sound only occurs when mode B is engaged. So, it would make sense that the sound occurs when mode B is disengaged. What is confusing is the ability to engage and disengage both modes concurrently. So it is understandable that ppl would associate it to both.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You are correct on that assessment. I just took their word that there were no anomaly (car accelerating on its own). I trust the ranger and have good rapport with him. But I guess we will never be 100% certain exactly what happened, unless I go over the logs with them step by step. With that being said, I'm fairly confident that the car coming down from the curb and creep being off is what caused the sensation of the car accelerating.

Thank you for the info. I appreciate it. Also, your theory sound plausible - you were there, we weren't, so you would know what could have caused it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Actually, isn't it more detailed and is not necessarily as simple as you represent.

Single stalk action engages TACC. Double pull to the stalk engages auto-steer and can start from two different scenarios; 1) TACC already engaged, 2) TACC not already engaged. So I would associate more with going to Mode A TACC, then Mode B Auto-Steer with the ability to engage both A and B concurrently. So, it makes sense that you have multiple scenarios that result in B being disabled, or A and B being disabled since they are separate modes or functions. I prefer having the ability to disengage auto-steer leaving TACC engaged. There are several vehicle indicators to the driver when dropping from A/B to B only. You tug of the wheel feeling the initial resistance to override B. Vehicle gives a audible sound. Vehicle does not slow signifying TACC is engaged. I believe, mainly because I do not recall, the audible sound only occurs when mode B is engaged. So, it would make sense that the sound occurs when mode B is disengaged. What is confusing is the ability to engage and disengage both modes concurrently. So it is understandable that ppl would associate it to both.

I get the point. Still, this is one area where I think erring on the side of safety might be an improvement, because as you note those modes are not really step by step, but you can get directly to AP from "no mode" - and indeed that is what I often do when using AP, why put it first on TACC if AP is what is suited for this road... disengaging that is also often associated with leaving the motorway in those instances, so TACC disabling would be a welcome and logical event.

But I do get what you are saying, I really do, especially as it relates to auto-steer not being very reliable and having to help it at times. Having TACC stay on is useful. But overall I think this is temporary as auto-steer keeps improving, so eventually the situation where you have to take control would logically also ask for taking control of the throttle. And, of course, this could be the safer option given the potential for mode confusion...

I guess we're better off leaving this as a bit of an undecided. I can see both sides...

But an easy change, IMO, would be to drop the cruise control enabling up/down movements of the stalk. Those can be confused with blinkers and are confusing in any case. I think they should go and pulling/pushing of the stalk being the only stalk-based activate/de-activate method for TACC and AP.

 

[Discoducky]

Thank you for the info. I appreciate it. Also, your theory sound plausible - you were there, we weren't, so you would know what could have caused it.

The thing I didn't understand until re-read the post was that the car was driven up onto a curb. I could see how the car could have enough potential energy to accelerate back down the curb as the wheel is turned down the slope.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The thing I didn't understand until re-read the post was that the car was driven up onto a curb. I could see how the car could have enough potential energy to accelerate back down the curb as the wheel is turned down the slope.

It was new to me as well.

@bushburner can you post a picture of the type of curb the car was on? (I understand you may not want to picture the actual place, but maybe a photo of a similar curb could be found online?)

 

[bushburner]

It was new to me as well.

@bushburner can you post a picture of the type of curb the car was on? (I understand you may not want to picture the actual place, but maybe a photo of a similar curb could be found online?)

something like this, but slightly steeper.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@bushburner Thanks! Was the car on the sidewalk or over the curb or...?

 

[vandacca]

@bushburner Thanks! Was the car on the sidewalk or over the curb or...?

@bushburner, maybe it would just be easier if you can put a re-enactment of the acceleration on YouTube for everyone to analyze?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@bushburner, maybe it would just be easier if you can put a re-enactment of the acceleration on YouTube for everyone to analyze?

That would be great, thanks!