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ICE Manufacturers not worried about the SuperCharger competition?

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90% of Tesla owners don't even use SC's and with an average commute of 50 miles, most drivers will never ever need access to fast chargers on a daily basis. Tesla's strategy is working: enable long distance driving and build out urban SC's to handle dense pop centers.

GM's dealerships do not have enough of a financial incentive to build chargers, but GM could mimic Tesla's strategy and pay for the installs at strategic locations, and expand to meet demand.
 
Thanks all for your opinions! Looks like I am just not aware of how much of a breakdown there appears to be between GM(or other manufacturers) and their dealerships.

If this is what we're stuck with for the next 3-8 years, then Tesla will have a MASSIVE jump on all the other companies that want to get into BEVs. I have yet to pull the trigger on one yet as my current ICE gets the job done well and I'll probably price better into the III, but I could not imagine buying any BEV that is not able to charge on the majority of roadtrips faster than 100kW. The younger folk who have done the 500+km roadtrips (we've all been there) will literally stop for only the time it takes to gas up (3 1/2 minutes) and hit the washroom (1/2 min) (for me, that is usually just a stop on the side of the road thing though).

My observation around here is that the current S owners don't mind the 20-45 minute wait time, so that's comforting, but if battery tech can get to the point where charges are between 5 and 15 minutes, all you need are washrooms and a snack vending machine like at those tiny self-serve gas stations. You don't need restaurants or whatever else in which case a dealership location works fine.

If dealerships are banking $2,000 for each car sold with an Ultracharger, that's what, maybe 100 cars they have to sell to pay for the UC electrical and construction? Doesn't that incentivize the dealer a bit? Plus, if you have customers coming to charge during the day, the salespeople can even try and upsell or book service appointments to swap seasonal tires, windshield wipers, etc. I don't know... not a huge profitability, but I still see it as an option.

I get it though, the SC locations are usually in fantastic locations for roadtripping and being open 24/7 is great. Not having gas stations open past 10 or 11pm is really annoying and has almost ruined me a few times.
 
My observation around here is that the current S owners don't mind the 20-45 minute wait time, so that's comforting, but if battery tech can get to the point where charges are between 5 and 15 minutes, all you need are washrooms and a snack vending machine like at those tiny self-serve gas stations. You don't need restaurants or whatever else in which case a dealership location works fine.
The trouble with ultra-fast charge times, on the order of 5 minutes, is not just the battery technology, it's the electrical infrastructure required. With an 8x improvement in charge times, a given site would need either 8x more power (give or take) or roughly 8x fewer stalls. I believe that electrical infrastructure is already a limiting factor in the expansion of some rural SC locations, some of which have only 4 stalls. There will be improvements, but certainly not overnight. So I think Tesla's investment in well-sited SC installations near amenities will continue to make sense for a number of years.
 
The trouble with ultra-fast charge times, on the order of 5 minutes, is not just the battery technology, it's the electrical infrastructure required. With an 8x improvement in charge times, a given site would need either 8x more power (give or take) or roughly 8x fewer stalls. I believe that electrical infrastructure is already a limiting factor in the expansion of some rural SC locations, some of which have only 4 stalls. There will be improvements, but certainly not overnight. So I think Tesla's investment in well-sited SC installations near amenities will continue to make sense for a number of years.

This is a valid argument against EV that is used by fuel cell advocates. The good counterargument is that as EV charging becomes a significant profit center for electric utilities, the infrastructure will get built.

EV is a multi-decade evolution for many reasons. There is no reason that GM and Ford in particular needs to be in a panic about building superchargers.
 
I might suggest that it would not need to be dealerships/ICE manufacturers that would be the only or even logical choice; perhaps an association between an ICE manufacturer and a major oil company who already has tens of thousands of refuelling locations. If the "oil companies" started to see themselves as "energy companies", and the "gas station" became a "refuelling station" (as long as you think of electrons as fuel), I see no contradiction. If I can go and buy regular, mid-grade, premium, and diesel at the same location (all different fuels requiring similar but separated infrastructure), why not add a couple of electric chargers as well? Sure, one or two here and there isn't going to make much difference but if even 1/3 (heck, probably 1/10 or 1/20) of the Shell/ Chevron/Petro-Canada/whatever-oil-company locations installed a couple of reasonably high-powered chargers, you'd have a pretty big installed base that met the criteria noted above. Even just consider truck stops; ample parking/driving area, located near major transportation routes (if not always points of interest); open 24/7 with amenities like restaurants, showers, etc.. I'm not an expert, but I believe service stations generally make more profit off the groceries/junk food/lottery tickets/etc. they sell than off the actual fuel, I would think those companies would want to retain as many consumers as possible and won't like to see the reduction in customers as EV adoption becomes more commonplace.

Plus, who says it has to be free? Consumers are already used to paying for fuel and I wouldn't think the Model 3 or any other "affordable" EV would include fuelling in the price of the vehicle. In my part of the world, fuel is taxed more highly than electricity, and at $0.08/kWh (electricity only, not including fixed distribution costs etc.) it would be pretty easy to make a nice markup without taking a lot of money out of the consumer's pocketbook. Grab an extra 10 kWh for $0.80, or pay $1.20 instead? Even if your electricity rate is $0.30/kWh, you'd be talking $4.50 instead of $3.00. Most people wouldn't balk at that I think, considering that charging away from home will likely be the exception rather than the rule for most EV users (my opinion).Maybe an annual or even lifetime subscription, pre-paid or pay-as-you-go, would be more likely and would help keep the cost of the vehicles down. New owner here, and new to the forum so forgive me if this is answered elsewhere, but does anyone have an estimate of how much of the cost of the Model S/X is paying for the Supercharger network build-out? Would it be as high as 5% of the cost of the vehicle?

I would think at some point someone will figure this out and try it, but it seems to be a chicken and egg scenario where no one (other than Tesla) will take the risk to build out the network until sufficient numbers of vehicles are using it to at least break even, and many consumers who might consider an electric vehicle with an essentially infinite number of charging locations (gas stations are ubiquitous enough to consider to be essentially infinite, even on remote stretches of highway) would be held back by the lack of said infrastructure, so everyone is waiting for the other guy to go first.

No reason to me that EVs and ICEs can't co-exist at fuelling stations, with the number of fuel pumps diminishing over time and being replaced by EV stalls.

To me, the biggest challenges are standardization of charging formats, and upgrading the power infrastructure. If all manufacturers could just agree on a charging standard, or at least have easily interchangeable adapters, that would remove one big uncertainty. Not sure how many gas stations would have a couple hundred amps to spare, so the upgrade needs transformers, cabling, substations etc. which is not cheap or quick, but also not impossible. Makes a good argument for co-generation and on-site storage to me, but again, not an expert.
 
This is a valid argument against EV that is used by fuel cell advocates. The good counterargument is that as EV charging becomes a significant profit center for electric utilities, the infrastructure will get built.
The real counterpoint is that most charging is done at home, unless you're on a trip, and takes five to ten seconds of your time. Fuel cells will never compete with that. Right now the real problem is short range EVs that start looking for a charge as soon as they leave the driveway. When you drive to the grocery store and use 20% of your range, that's a problem.
 
This is a valid argument against EV that is used by fuel cell advocates. The good counterargument is that as EV charging becomes a significant profit center for electric utilities, the infrastructure will get built.
Further, for the very high price of installing hydrogen infrastructure, very major investments can instead be made in electrical transmission upgrades. One might also suggest that, as Li-ion cell prices drop, adding battery storage could enable very rapid charging at some remote locations. However, on the basis that it would be prohibitively expensive to deploy enough on-site batteries to keep up in peak scenarios such as holiday weekends, there would still be no substitute for having super-high-power grid connections.

I agree that optimal use cases for EVs generally involve charging overnight, at the workplace, or at other locations where multiple hours are spent. The best way, I think, to mitigate the need for fast, on-the-road charging will simply be to sell cars with larger battery packs and focus on destination/overnight charging. Most of the recent congestion at Tejon Ranch on I-5 probably could have been avoided if the Model S had probably about 1.5x or 2x more battery capacity. Being able to drive roughly 400mi / 650km between places like LA and SF without stopping to charge would really be ideal. If you could do that, and charge overnight at your destination, then you'd be saving time versus driving an ICE. More realistically, if you have to stop only once for en-route charging, you're still doing quite well time-wise while putting less overall demand on the SC network. Given continued battery cost reductions and energy density improvements, perhaps Tesla in the not too distant future may be able to double the battery capacity of its cars for an additional $10K.
 
The anti-EV argument that charging takes too long is not a valid one for the majority of EV owners who charge at home every night, a process which from the owner's point of view takes less than a minute.

Generally true for current EV owners, and there are still millions of homeowners who don't yet have EVs for whom this would be true. But to increase adoption beyond owners of single family homes, I think there will need to be more of a "local" DCFC infrastructure in place. Canuck (upthread) has the right idea -- the first quick-service chain (like McD, Subway, Panera, etc) to partner with an EV manufacturer or charging network to offer multi-car DCFC at their locations will likely win tons of business from EV drivers.

If you think about what's co-located with many gas stations nowadays, i.e. convenience stores, it's often a really good fit: while you fill up for 5 minutes you can run in and grab something quick. So the logical thing to co-locate with a DCFC station would be fast food, assuming you could "fill up" your car sufficiently (e.g. 20%-80%) within the 30 minutes or so it might take you to order and eat. Charge while you eat, or eat while you charge, or maybe a corny slogan like feed your car while you feed yourself. In fact I've joked with my kids that the car is having lunch or dinner at the same time we are. My favorite supercharger locations are the ones with a few quick-service restaurants (like Panera) nearby because the timing typically works perfectly.

Granted, it wouldn't work everywhere, but it seems to me like it would be a great formula for many suburban, car-dependent areas. Also granted, sufficient power availability might be an issue in a lot of locations. It's not just a couple hundred spare amps, it's potentially a couple thousand. And it's a big investment at each location - what kind of fee structure would make sense? And there's the chicken-and-egg problem: how many people who can't charge at home will buy EVs until such a network is built, and why invest so much in a DCFC network if most EV owners charge at home?

Now take all the caveats above and add complications from permitting & utilities, and you've described many of the challenges Tesla has been facing in building the supercharger network.
 
The anti-EV argument that charging takes too long is not a valid one for the majority of EV owners who charge at home every night, a process which from the owner's point of view takes less than a minute.
While I certainly agree that's true for most Tesla owners today, I'm not sure it's going to be true for most potential owners in the near future who don't own their own stand alone homes. For people without their own private parking, charging is likely to be a major issue where the time to charge is very important since they can't easily (or at all) charge at night.
 
If you think about what's co-located with many gas stations nowadays, i.e. convenience stores, it's often a really good fit: while you fill up for 5 minutes you can run in and grab something quick. So the logical thing to co-locate with a DCFC station would be fast food, assuming you could "fill up" your car sufficiently (e.g. 20%-80%) within the 30 minutes or so it might take you to order and eat. Charge while you eat, or eat while you charge, or maybe a corny slogan like feed your car while you feed yourself. In fact I've joked with my kids that the car is having lunch or dinner at the same time we are. My favorite supercharger locations are the ones with a few quick-service restaurants (like Panera) nearby because the timing typically works perfectly.
Maybe we can revise the whole 50's drive up diner thing. An attendant roller skates up to your car and plugs you in. You order from the 17" display and when your order is ready they roller skate your tray out to the car.

Add the snake charger and you skip step #1. I suspect Elon's team could easily create a little robot that rolls up to your car and delivers the tray and takes it back on demand later. Total laziness to the max.
 
Maybe we can revise the whole 50's drive up diner thing. An attendant roller skates up to your car and plugs you in. You order from the 17" display and when your order is ready they roller skate your tray out to the car.

Add the snake charger and you skip step #1. I suspect Elon's team could easily create a little robot that rolls up to your car and delivers the tray and takes it back on demand later. Total laziness to the max.
Yes, and since they are electric cars, the whole operation could be inside.
 
If you think about what's co-located with many gas stations nowadays, i.e. convenience stores, it's often a really good fit: while you fill up for 5 minutes you can run in and grab something quick. So the logical thing to co-locate with a DCFC station would be fast food, assuming you could "fill up" your car sufficiently (e.g. 20%-80%) within the 30 minutes or so it might take you to order and eat. Charge while you eat, or eat while you charge, or maybe a corny slogan like feed your car while you feed yourself. In fact I've joked with my kids that the car is having lunch or dinner at the same time we are. My favorite supercharger locations are the ones with a few quick-service restaurants (like Panera) nearby because the timing typically works perfectly.
DCFC stations like that would certainly help EV adoption. Ultimately, however, I think it would make more sense to target resources at providing L2 AC charging at a large fraction of long term parking spots. Initially, the focus can be on doing this for new construction, including commercial and government buildings, multi-family dwellings, hotels/motels/inns, and curbside. Assuming that autonomous cars for hire become popular, this problem will get easier, since there will be more flexibility as to where to park and charge those cars.
 
The bottom line is this: Tesla already has the Supercharger network in place, and adding to it, on a daily basis.
GM has said they will not invest it one. The others (BMW, Lexus, Porsche, Ford, et all) may, but highly unlikely, choose to team up and band together for a common type connector.
If, instead, they should choose to join up with Tesla, if I fact Tesla would allow or even want it, then they could go with a proven existing network, and be far ahead. Of course, there are obstacles relating to the tiny batteries in these new cars. That is a problem for the engineers to resolve. I am sure it is possible. Will it be inexpensive, or quick? Doubtful, but perhaps.
One thing is certain, if no one starts it, the game will never proceed.