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Ice traction
- Thread starter rm84
- Start date
MountainRatMat
Member
I have found that with the AWD Tesla's ice traction is so much better than an ICE vehicle that I think winter tires, no studs, no sand is how I would run in winter climates. I ski a lot so hit the mountains regularly but just run the M+S in the winter because the majority of my driving is on warm dry roads.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I've lived/worked in Montana and Syracuse. For nine years I was paid to drive supplies, employees and guests in the worst winter conditions you can imagine. And when I quit working for ski areas I searched out winter storms to ski. Whistler, Brighton, Crystal, Sundance, etc, all require big miles over multiple mountain passes in the middle of winter. So I've seen plenty of long-distance winter mayhem and know how to avoid becoming part of the problem. Don't try to tell me I'm not qualified without knowing anything about me other than my current residence.
I provide you with a good article containing tons of objective facts and scientific studies, and knowledge from tire industry experts and yet you dismiss it by pretending that metal studs have come so far since 1994 that the info is invalid. But you ignore that the same studies were also using studless tires from the same year and they have improved much more than studs could ever hope.
Or you claim the scientific studies were not "peer-reviewed" so they must not be valid. Then you display a shocking level of ignorance of how electronic driver aids actually work by saying:
The instant torque is only a disadvantage if it's not controlled. Modern electronic aids control the instant torque more instantly than is possible on the higher mass of ICE engine/transmission. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how these aids work if you think the high torque is a disadvantage.
Yes, if you're going ice racing, by all means, use metal studs. If you're trying to get to work or get to Grandma's for Christmas, do not pretend like you need whatever the ice racers use. In fact, ice racing at the highest levels use tires with more studs with better penetration and they are not even DOT legal. But you are proving the point of the excellent article I provided a link to which states:
"Nowhere does consumer perception lag further behind on-the-ground reality than in the car world. And that’s a problem because your outdated beliefs, loyalties, and superstitions are probably costing you money and compromising your safety."
For those still undecided, I recommend you read the excellent article I linked to in Post #11. Once you've made your mind up that studs are a necessary evil of winter, you'll probably go to your grave believing that (and trying to get your grandchildren to adopt the same out-dated beliefs). Until then, there is still time to see the light.
Your banana belt "winter" is irrelevant.
Just as your claim an F150 4x4 is no match for your car. Tell you what. I'll drive my pickup to work and you try and follow me in your car. Deep frozen ruts of ice and snow where you bounce from side to side like a bowling ball in the gutter and the diffs drag. The Alaska guy knows what this is.
Studs work on ice. Period. My tires won't touch pavement for months.
Easy there. I guess the entire state of Alaska is wrong when it comes to winter tires. But then what do we know, just drive on solid snow and ice more than half the year. And yes I’ve always agreed for most of the “lower 48” studs are not better. I ran blizzaks and xIce the 4 years we in The mountains of TN durring residency and my last few years in Tahoe where I grew up.
Your quoted arrival is not valid scientific literature. The scientific method isnt used, it is observational at best but outdated. The data is all over the place, has holes in the data and makes many assumptions.
Here is a non peer reviewed article that at least was done reciently on tires you can currently buy (but not all in the US). They use a scoring ruberic the same one for studded and studless. The top performing studless tire would have been tied for 8th overall.
Norwegian auto federation:
Google Translate
A Canadian group that wrote about the above results, easier to read but the same scores
Enter Hakka 9 – The 2017 NAF Winter Tire Test | Saskatchewan Studded Tire Club
The only reason I bring up ice racing is studded DOT tires are faster than studless. Not talking about spikes but street leagal DOTs. I never raced in any of the spike divisions.
Here is that hill I pulled the Jeep up the other day and what our roads look like every almost every day October to May.
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People that have never lived in the real cold don't understand that the packed snow on the road turns to ice. At -30 on that rough ice studs rule.
Maybe in new New York that white stuff is snow. But in the frozen north it's a sheet of rough ice. And it stays that way until April.
And I read the entire Norwegian auto federation document. About as good a comparison S you could do. They bought the tires off the rack from a retail store. Tested indoors in a controlled environment, outdoors in the real world, on snow/ice/wet/dry roads on the same vehicles. The top scoring studles tire was 8th overall and the top studless tire available in N America (Nokia Hakka R3) was 12th. The top tire available in N America was the Hakka 9 with 84/100 points and the top studless was the Hakka R3 with 75/100 points
Here are the results of Hakka 9 vs R2. On ice 9 scored 38/40 R2 26/40. On snow 9 scored 38/40 R2 34/40.
Here are the results of Hakka 9 vs R2. On ice 9 scored 38/40 R2 26/40. On snow 9 scored 38/40 R2 34/40.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Well, it's not the entire state of Alaska that feels they need studs, but it wouldn't be the first time 70% of the people were making questionable decisions.
So no comment about the Norwegian auto federation also being incorrect about studded bs studless tires performance on ice? Look it up this group is considered the international authority on winter tire testing. They do the test every year.
So like Alaskans and Canadians what would Norwegians know about winter driving?
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="coleAK, post: 3339218, member: 88661
So like Alaskans and Canadians what would Norwegians know about winter driving?[/QUOTE]
You must have not read the Alaskan study I posted.
You can pretend you're right all you want but the facts show that studs are heading the way of the dodo bird. Old fashioned and uneccesary with the great advances in studless winter tires. Sure, if you feel you absolutely need the extra security on ice and couldn't get by without them, then, by all means, use them. Most people have figured out they don't need them anymore.
So like Alaskans and Canadians what would Norwegians know about winter driving?[/QUOTE]
You must have not read the Alaskan study I posted.
You can pretend you're right all you want but the facts show that studs are heading the way of the dodo bird. Old fashioned and uneccesary with the great advances in studless winter tires. Sure, if you feel you absolutely need the extra security on ice and couldn't get by without them, then, by all means, use them. Most people have figured out they don't need them anymore.
I guess the difference about living in Norway and America is we have more icy conditions and steeper shorter mountain passes. Twice a day the fjord fog ices down the road alongside it, then you’re up 800 m in the snow and down again on 11% hills. Gravel and sand sinks in the ice. Frequent ripping of the surface with studs makes traction better for everyone. But could it be achieved by precision sanding?
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