Ice traction

[rm84]

Hi all,
new to the forum and not yet a Tesla owner, but still full of ideas I would love to share.
I love in Norway, we have snowy icy winters and a culture of almost half the cars running studded tires. This makes the road less slippery for the other half running studless, as the ice is roughed up in braking and acceleration zones.
It is well known here that too many studless cars makes the roads very slippery, increasing the need of sanding/salting. Sand and salt either sinks into the ice or is thrown out of the track so reapplication needs to be constant.

So what’s that to do with Tesla?

I’ve noticed the “Frunk” in my friend’s car, and I think it could be used as a sand-tank like what we have on our trains. Whenever TCS or ABS warning is lit, sand could be air-blasted in front of the front tires.

It would take away the need of studded tires here, improving city air quality. Reduce overall road maintenance cost, removing the big trucks again increasing air quality by reducing unnecessary traffic. And also increase safety for everyone using the roads. Many municipalities here offer free filled sand boxes so it would be easy and cheap to fill. Many countries here in Europe forbid studded tires so it could be a universally helpful accessory. It’s not often, but how disastrous it looks on TV when there’s snow and ice in Texas or Nice.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on this proposal.
-Rolv Marius

 

[ricohman]

Interesting idea.
I live in a much colder climate but here is my 2 cents.
At 60 km h (35 mph) your car is moving about 55 feet a second. If you can somehow dump sand (sand isn't sprayed it's spread with a rotor) in front of the wheels it wouldn't even be stationary on the ice by the time the front wheels drive over the sand. And a cubic yard of sand weighs around 3000lbs (1360 kg). So if the Tesla's frunk can hold 15 cubic feet then you could put 1425 lbs (646 kg) of sand up front.
I can see a few problems with this.

 

[david_42]

Studded tires are obsolete. The new tread formulations for traction tires perform better than studs under all conditions from dry pavement to wet ice. Studs were a great idea 50 years ago, but reduce traction on dry pavement, grind down any and all road surfaces, are worthless in deep snow. I got a lot of use out of them when I lived in upstate New York and Idaho, but will never buy them again.

Studded Snow Tires vs. Studless Snow Tires | Bridgestone Tires

 

[rm84]

sand isn't sprayed it's spread with a rotor

on trains here it’s sprayed

 

[ricohman]

on trains here it’s sprayed

Oh I thought you were talking about using the car!
That's why it makes no sense.

 

[Oldschool496]

on trains here it’s sprayed

Trains are metal to metal friction increase with the sand introduced or dropped onto the rail.

 

[coleAK]

Studded tires are obsolete. The new tread formulations for traction tires perform better than studs under all conditions from dry pavement to wet ice. Studs were a great idea 50 years ago, but reduce traction on dry pavement, grind down any and all road surfaces, are worthless in deep snow. I got a lot of use out of them when I lived in upstate New York and Idaho, but will never buy them again.

Studded Snow Tires vs. Studless Snow Tires | Bridgestone Tires

Studded tires are not obsolete. I’m in Alaska and will only run studded Nokians in the winter. Studded Nokian Hakkapeleta’s are the #1 winter tire in AK. The studless tires are close for the first winter or 2 in most conditions but when it gets really cold (like much below 0F) studded Nokian are expentially better then blizzard, XIce,... I’ll also mention we banned the use of salt on the roads so for 6-7 months a year my tires rarely touch the asphalt. When we run the ice races studless tire production is the only vehicle class not required to have a roll cage. Why because on the ice studless tire cars run the course much slower then cars with even DOT studded tires.

And The article you quoted was from Bridgestone who coincidentally only make studless winter tires so I would guess some bias there.

 

[StealthP3D]

Studded tires are obsolete. The new tread formulations for traction tires perform better than studs under all conditions from dry pavement to wet ice. Studs were a great idea 50 years ago, but reduce traction on dry pavement, grind down any and all road surfaces, are worthless in deep snow. I got a lot of use out of them when I lived in upstate New York and Idaho, but will never buy them again.

Studded Snow Tires vs. Studless Snow Tires | Bridgestone Tires

I agree the new generation of studless winter tires are very good on ice. That said, a good studded tire will still somewhat outperform on ice, at least until the studs are worn down too much, at which point the studless winter tires can actually be better on ice due to their superior winter rubber compounds. If the roads were always black ice and everyone had studs, I would run them too and just accept the shorter life. But you can only go as fast as the bozo in front of you which kind of leaves studded tires only for those who either have special requirements like unusually steep and icy hills or those who require the extra security, maybe they are not very experienced drivers or have trouble "reading" the road due to degrading eyesight.

The extra capable electronic traction and stability controls on the Model 3 further reduce any advantage new studs have over good studless tires. In most icy situations, studless winter tires work well enough that studs are definitely declining in usage overall.

 

[StealthP3D]

It's an interesting topic, how consumer beliefs and old traditions die hard. Here's an interesting article that cites tire experts and scientific studies:

Don't Put Studs on Your Tires This Winter

 

[coleAK]

I agree the new generation of studless winter tires are very good on ice. That said, a good studded tire will still somewhat outperform on ice, at least until the studs are worn down too much, at which point the studless winter tires can actually be better on ice due to their superior winter rubber compounds. If the roads were always black ice and everyone had studs, I would run them too and just accept the shorter life. But you can only go as fast as the bozo in front of you which kind of leaves studded tires only for those who either have special requirements like unusually steep and icy hills or those who require the extra security, maybe they are not very experienced drivers or have trouble "reading" the road due to degrading eyesight.

The extra capable electronic traction and stability controls on the Model 3 further reduce any advantage new studs have over good studless tires. In most icy situations, studless winter tires work well enough that studs are definitely declining in usage overall.

Soft studless tires wear down way faster than carbide studs. Last week it was -20F when I was picking up my kids at school. There was a Jeep Grand Cherokee spinning all 4 tires on the mild grade. We are talking a rise that I'm estimating to be 15’ over 100 yards. He was on Blizzaks he got from Costco in October. I towed him to the parking lot with my LX on 5th winter Hakka 7’s.

And as per you driving skill comment. Most of my driving is in town during the winter so rarely get over 60 mph in the winter. And I don’t run studs to go faster, I use them to stop shorter.

 

[StealthP3D]

Soft studless tires wear down way faster than carbide studs. Last week it was -20F when I was picking up my kids at school. There was a Jeep Grand Cherokee spinning all 4 tires on the mild grade. We are talking a rise that I'm estimating to be 15’ over 100 yards. He was on Blizzaks he got from Costco in October. I towed him to the parking lot with my LX on 5th winter Hakka 7’s.

And as per you driving skill comment. Most of my driving is in town during the winter so rarely get over 60 mph in the winter. And I don’t run studs to go faster, I use them to stop shorter.

Check out this article comparing studs to modern studless winter tires:

Don't Put Studs on Your Tires This Winter

It's a really good article with a lot of OBJECTIVE information.

 

[coleAK]

It's an interesting topic, how consumer beliefs and old traditions die hard. Here's an interesting article that cites tire experts and scientific studies:

Don't Put Studs on Your Tires This Winter

From what I can tell The studies data is from 1994... and it’s not peer reviewed so they can say whatever that want and get it “published”. Yes I agree for most places studless tires are better because roads are either heavily salted or dry asphalt from time to time durring winter. But in most of Alaska (not SE) and northern Canada studs are superior because we are driving on hard packed snow and ice and the tires rarely touch the asphalt.

I’ve said it before when we run the ice races (on a frozen lake) the same cars, same drivers run the course way faster (higher speeds, faster times) with DOT studs than studless tires.

And you’ve said on other threads you don’t even live in a winter region, so stop arm chair quarterbacking.

 

[ricohman]

Soft studless tires wear down way faster than carbide studs. Last week it was -20F when I was picking up my kids at school. There was a Jeep Grand Cherokee spinning all 4 tires on the mild grade. We are talking a rise that I'm estimating to be 15’ over 100 yards. He was on Blizzaks he got from Costco in October. I towed him to the parking lot with my LX on 5th winter Hakka 7’s.

And as per you driving skill comment. Most of my driving is in town during the winter so rarely get over 60 mph in the winter. And I don’t run studs to go faster, I use them to stop shorter.

True.
And the best winter tires come with mounting holes for studs. Whether you want them or not is up to you. Same tire and same compound.
I also raced on ice for many years. What a great time! We ran studded and spiked tires. And an old Katana with screws for studs. Bikes were not allowed to run without studs and cars without studs were in a separate class due to their slower laps. There was even a Chevette with a V6 crammed in behind the driver if you can imagine that.

 

[coleAK]

True.
And the best winter tires come with mounting holes for studs. Whether you want them or not is up to you. Same tire and same compound.
I also raced on ice for many years. What a great time! We ran studded and spiked tires. And an old Katana with screws for studs. Bikes were not allowed to run without studs and cars without studs were in a separate class due to their slower laps. There was even a Chevette with a V6 crammed in behind the driver if you can imagine that.

I forgot about bikes. Studded tires are required for the bike Iditarod (1000 miles Mat-Su to Nome)

I ice raced for years as well in the PK era (pre kids). I think I’m going to “pre run” the Big Lake course this year in the model 3. The only thing I have to work out is where I can charge to get home since the power is off to the RV sites all winter. I May have to take a generator...

 

[jerry33]

Studs work by cutting through the film of water and digging into the ice. When ice racing, not to be confused with ICE racing, drivers spin their tires which creates the perfect condition for studs. Drivers that have a spinning style will find that studs help. However, the big reason to not use studs is that if you are driving on a mix of paved surface and packed snow (or just paved surface) the studs chip out minute pieces of pavement which are carcinogenic. They also cause a lot of road damage. In temperatures below about -40, ice is similar to pavement, so studs don't help (unless you really spin the tires--never a good idea). And studs don't help at all unless the snow is hard packed. For most driving, studless tires are the way to go (but don't go cheap, get the good ones).

 

[StealthP3D]

True.
And the best winter tires come with mounting holes for studs. Whether you want them or not is up to you. Same tire and same compound.

I would never run a tire designed to take studs, without studs. There is a good reason for that. The rubber compound of a tire designed for studs must be hard enough to retain the studs. The best rubber compounds for winter are too soft to retain studs adequately so manufacturers use harder rubber for studded tires. It's a compromise so don't ever buy studdable tires unless you plan to run them with studs.

Better yet, just get a good studless winter tire.

 

[StealthP3D]

From what I can tell The studies data is from 1994... .

Studs have not advanced that much since 1994. In fact, the rubber compounds have advanced faster. There is only so much advancement that can be done with a metal stud and most of that had to do with making them last longer. So the rubber has advanced faster than the stud technology and completely passed it up to the point that studs are going the way of internal combustion cars. And EV's have a big advantage on slippery surfaces with their computer-controlled torque response that reacts instantly and doesn't have all the momentum of an ICE engine with its heavy multi-speed transmission and iron crankshaft. So there is even less of a reason to use an old technology that has as many issues as studded tires.

 

[ricohman]

Studs work by cutting through the film of water and digging into the ice. When ice racing, not to be confused with ICE racing, drivers spin their tires which creates the perfect condition for studs. Drivers that have a spinning style will find that studs help. However, the big reason to not use studs is that if you are driving on a mix of paved surface and packed snow (or just paved surface) the studs chip out minute pieces of pavement which are carcinogenic. They also cause a lot of road damage. In temperatures below about -40, ice is similar to pavement, so studs don't help (unless you really spin the tires--never a good idea). And studs don't help at all unless the snow is hard packed. For most driving, studless tires are the way to go (but don't go cheap, get the good ones).

I find at -40 studs grip far better than no studs. I even have studs on my Trek Farley!

 

[ricohman]

Studs have not advanced that much since 1994. In fact, the rubber compounds have advanced faster. There is only so much advancement that can be done with a metal stud and most of that had to do with making them last longer. So the rubber has advanced faster than the stud technology and completely passed it up to the point that studs are going the way of internal combustion cars. And EV's have a big advantage on slippery surfaces with their computer-controlled torque response that reacts instantly and doesn't have all the momentum of an ICE engine with its heavy multi-speed transmission and iron crankshaft. So there is even less of a reason to use an old technology that has as many issues as studded tires.

You realize the fastest cars on ice are the lightest cars.
Just saying.
Momentum of ICE engine? LOL!

 

[coleAK]

Studs have not advanced that much since 1994. In fact, the rubber compounds have advanced faster. There is only so much advancement that can be done with a metal stud and most of that had to do with making them last longer. So the rubber has advanced faster than the stud technology and completely passed it up to the point that studs are going the way of internal combustion cars. And EV's have a big advantage on slippery surfaces with their computer-controlled torque response that reacts instantly and doesn't have all the momentum of an ICE engine with its heavy multi-speed transmission and iron crankshaft. So there is even less of a reason to use an old technology that has as many issues as studded tires.

Again you are from a non winter climate area... and don’t know what you are talking about.

Ricohman is in Canada and I’m in central Alaska.

And I think the EVs have a disadvantage on slick surfaces with their high instant torque. Many times ice racing (with non spike tires that is) Impreza’s (non turbo) beat Sti’s for this reason. I would bet $$$$$ that my sons (wife’s old car) 2004 MB e320 4matic with 7 year old (studded) Hakka 5’s will beat your P3 with studless winter tires on an ice auto cross or close circuit track all day.

And as for studded tires not changing since 1994. They use many of the same advanced compounds on studded tires now as well. And I can tell you hakka 4 to hakka 7 was a huge jump in performance on ice. And the Hakka 9 on our 3 is amazing.

And look at Nokian (the authority in winter tires) for passenger cars they rate their Hakka 9 (studded) top performance in their line and their Hakka 44 (exposition tire) is stud-able...

I raced a Honda S2000 for years in RWD. And gutted Miata’s are pretty fast...