If you were not getting a Model S what would you get

[Kevin Sharpe]

Let's face it, the Zoe is a small city commuter car, whether anyone likes it or not.

To keep this on Topic, I would never ever buy a Zoe if it came here.

I agree that the ZOE is ideally suited to urban environments and similar to the Leaf in many ways. However, I think you should not underestimate the impact of 3 Phase 43kW charging.... imagine for a moment 'fast' charge stations that costs $1000, are compatible with every EV on the road, and can be found everywhere you go... that's why the ZOE is important and will sell in numbers that Tesla can only dream about.

 

[BenjaminJWD]

This topic is really interesting to me because right now I am in the position that the car I own (2004 Honda Civic Hybrid) is on it's last leg (200,000 miles all driven by me). I've looked at a lot of EV's and have come to the conclusion that I need at a minimum 240 miles on a charge. To give you an idea, in really busy weeks I have driven up to 1000 miles in Indianapolis and the surrounding counties and that is only Monday to Friday. My lifetime average for the car is 553 miles per week.

Point being, I have not found a pure electric that claims the range I need other than Tesla. So I am down to getting an ICE that is inexpensive to tide me over until I can save the cash for a Tesla. I could go get a Volt today, but I just don't like the car. It seems halfway and half...well you get the idea. So I guess since this is all theoretical...

BMW M5

 

[dsm363]

This topic is really interesting to me because right now I am in the position that the car I own (2004 Honda Civic Hybrid) is on it's last leg (200,000 miles all driven by me). I've looked at a lot of EV's and have come to the conclusion that I need at a minimum 240 miles on a charge. To give you an idea, in really busy weeks I have driven up to 1000 miles in Indianapolis and the surrounding counties and that is only Monday to Friday. My lifetime average for the car is 553 miles per week.

Point being, I have not found a pure electric that claims the range I need other than Tesla. So I am down to getting an ICE that is inexpensive to tide me over until I can save the cash for a Tesla. I could go get a Volt today, but I just don't like the car. It seems halfway and half...well you get the idea. So I guess since this is all theoretical...

BMW M5

How far do you drive the most in a day? The 85 kWh Model S might work.

 

[daniel]

You are missing the point... the Furtive-eGT is a beautiful car which I gave as an example of what Tesla could have built if they'd stayed in the sports car arena. I'm not suggesting that Tesla should have built a hybrid but rather they should have delivered a 400+ mile range 2+2 because I believe a lot of people would buy it. You also need to see the build quality of the Furtive-eGT or a top end Audi to understand what Tesla are up against.

I was responding to your suggestion that Tesla should have built a car that another company is building. As for 400+ miles, I'd love that, but the technology was not available at time time to get that range at an aceptable price. I believe they chose 300 miles for the top-tier Model S to keep the price acceptable. I'd love a 400-mile EV. But I accept Tesla's decision that for what it would cost, there's not enough demand. (Yet.)

... we need mainstream car manufacturers because they are interested in real volumes.

And that is precisely Tesla's goal. And they've decided that they believe the best way to get there from scratch was to build a limited-production roadster first, then a luxury sedan, and eventually Bluestar. They felt that continuing with the Roadster was not the best way to get to the Bluestar.

How far do you drive the most in a day? The 85 kWh Model S might work.

I gather that Benjamin agrees with that, but doesn't have the money for it at present.

 

[AnOutsider]

Yes, in Geneva and it was lousy... several Roadster owners said the same thing and decided there and then not to proceed with a purchase of the Model S.

...

I've said many times that I wish Tesla had produced a 300+ mile Roadster and a best in class 2+2 with a 400+ mile range. I think that both of those would have been delivered quickly and driven forward the notion that electric sports cars are the pinnacle of technology. If you want a very simple comparison then look at the way that top riders clamoured for a seat in this years TT-Zero.

The problem with a forum like TMC is that objective criticism of Tesla is difficult and many people who I know hold similar views will not put their head above the parapet.... if you want a real understanding of the European reaction to the Model S then talk to Roadster owners (the majority of whom are not members of any forum).... if you think the Model X will sell well here then you clearly have no understanding of the European market.

Considering most here are not in Europe, then yes, most will not immediately understand. A car like the Zoe is also not likely to sell well here though. I may be wrong, but your whole position and "anger" seems to stem from Tesla not supporting the charging method you felt was most important. 3 phase is not all that prevalent here in the USA and Tesla is a company based in and primarily serving the USA.

They've already agreed to include three phase charging after all the uproar, and now you seem ticked that they didn't give you enough info on it? Color me a fanboy, but can you not understand how it may be hard to take this opinion as objective? Of my assumption is wrong, please correct me.

Also, asking a bunch of European roadster owners if Tesla should have made a large sedan is hardly representative, given Europeans tend to favor smaller cars and the roadster is fairly tiny and in-sedan like it many ways. Also there's what? 2500ish roadsters sold? There's more Model S's reserved than that. Therefore it's arguable that the Model S is catered to a much larger audience and it's not a given that the audience always overlaps. There are roadster owners here who do not want an S and there are S reservation holders who would not consider the roadster. From a business perspective though, the latter group appears larger than the former, so I'd guess they're doing something right.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

I may be wrong, but your whole position and "anger" seems to stem from Tesla not supporting the charging method you felt was most important. 3 phase is not all that prevalent here in the USA and Tesla is a company based in and primarily serving the USA.

They've already agreed to include three phase charging after all the uproar, and now you seem ticked that they didn't give you enough info on it? Color me a fanboy, but can you not understand how it may be hard to take this opinion as objective? Of my assumption is wrong, please correct me.

Your assumption is wrong. I considered buying a Model S to support Tesla even though it is enormous by European standards and much more car than I need. However, the lack of clarity on 3 Phase, a proprietary DC charging system, the 17" screen, and a very tatty example in Geneva, finally made the decision for me.

I'm sorry, but I just don't like the Model S.... the Roadster is a classic british sports car with all the weaknesses that entails (it even leaks in the rain) and that is what I really like!

Now, if you want to see an example of top quality design in an electric car then get inside a Furtive-eGT. That truly is a demonstration of the 'art' and IMO something that Tesla could learn a lot from.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Considering most here are not in Europe, then yes, most will not immediately understand. A car like the Zoe is also not likely to sell well here though.

and I would never suggest that it would.... clearly Renault have no real brand identity in the US. However, that does not change the reality that the ZOE is perfectly in sync with the charging infrastructure in Europe.

 

[Jason S]

I'm really a bit confused where your head is at. It appears you would have a car much like your Roadster as your next car. That works for you and the original question is egocentric: what would YOU buy.

However, bringing in a bunch of things re: what would you do if you owned Tesla... that seems like another thread. Perhaps what you'd do is build only the cars you want. That could work, although it might drive your market research people absolutely crazy. Tesla is going a different direction than that.

For me the Model S works for my current car needs. The Gen III might work better, but I'm not going to wait for it. The Roadster might've worked as well, but I'm used to driving sedans so the S fits my comfort zone. I don't like the idea of hybrid ICE of any sort, but some of them have good longevity so far and that bodes well for that solution. So if I wasn't getting an S, I'd prolly choose from the current model year best in breed hybrids.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

I'm really a bit confused where your head is at. It appears you would have a car much like your Roadster as your next car. That works for you and the original question is egocentric: what would YOU buy.

I believe I answered that question in my first post in this thread... a ZOE and Furtive-eGT... why are you confused?

I'm really not interested in a Model S... I hope to have a ZOE because it will be a practical run-around with fast charging everywhere (3 Phase AC) and a Furtive-eGT (probably in my dreams) because that's the car Tesla should have made :wink:

For the record, with 0 to 100 km/h (~62mph) in 3.6 s, 287 km/h (~180mph) top speed, 2+2 configuration, and a level of luxury to die for, the Furtive-eGT really is not "like a Roadster" (which I love).

 

[Yggdrasill]

and I would never suggest that it would.... clearly Renault have no real brand identity in the US. However, that does not change the reality that the ZOE is perfectly in sync with the charging infrastructure in Europe.

I don't agree. The Zoe excites me little more than the Leaf does. It's a city car and it won't appeal to a broader market here than does the Leaf.

I think Tesla has the right strategy. 300 mile range is pretty much ideal. It pretty much eliminates range anxiety, which is one of the biggest things holding EVs back.

And personally, I think that Tesla isn't doing a bad thing by going the proprietary route when it comes to DC charging. (As long as it becomes available in Norway - if not, I will have to reconsider my reservation. But I am working on the assumption that Tesla will install superchargers here. We are their biggest market in Europe, and our roads suck, so we can't drive very fast, which means the chargers don't need to be very close together. Also Norway is pretty big, so we need to drive far relatively often.) For one thing, because I don't trust random businesses to ensure their charger is up and running. The more hands-on Tesla is regarding the Superchargers, the better. I would like Tesla Rangers to be at a Tesla supercharger and trying to fix it, within hours of it being reported as non-functional. This would never make economic sense if looking at the charger alone, but if Tesla can give customers the security that they can go anywhere, and every charger will work, always, nothing can hold Tesla back.

Also, with a 300 mile range, you need DC chargers in completely different places than where they've put up CHAdeMO chargers. With a single organization deciding where to put up chargers, one can be fairly sure they are able to place them in locations that are meaningful. And of course, 90 kW is more than 50 kW.

If I need to travel 700 km, and I have a Tesla Model S, Nissan Leaf or Renault Zoe, this is how the charging will ideally work:

- The Tesla Model S needs to charge once for 45 minutes at a Tesla Supercharger.
- The Nissan Leaf needs to charge approximately 7 times at CHAdeMO fast chargers, for around 18 minutes each time. (Total charging time 2 hours and 6 minutes)
- The Renault Zoe needs to charge approximately 6 times at 3-phase 43 kW outlets, for around 22 minutes each time. (Total charging time 2 hours and 15 minutes)

What are the chances that something goes wrong one of those 6-7 times? The way things are now and for the overseeable future, pretty damn good. I think it's more probable that a company focused on quality will be able to make that single fast charger work brilliantly. Tesla knows if stuff goes wrong with those chargers that have the Tesla logo plastered all over them, it will bite them in the ass.

And consider what is worse for the batteries. Both the Leaf and the Zoe will charge at around 2C, while the Model S will charge at around 1C. (I'm sure there are differences in battery chemistry and the like, but the 300 mile solution seems more future-oriented. If you charge the Model S at 2C in the next generation of batteries, that's a 24 minute stop to get 80%, or one 24 minute stop over a distance of 700 km!)

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

And personally, I think that Tesla isn't doing a bad thing by going the proprietary route when it comes to DC charging. (As long as it becomes available in Norway - if not, I will have to reconsider my reservation.

I wish you the best of luck with that... personally, I don't think it will ever happen because Tesla DC will not become the international charging standard.

If I need to travel 700 km, and I have a Tesla Model S, Nissan Leaf or Renault Zoe, this is how the charging will ideally work:

Why did you leave out the Furtive-eGT from the list? It has a 150kWh battery and is the car that I would use for such a trip.

 

[ElSupreme]

Why did you leave out the Furtive-eGT from the list? It has a 150kWh battery and is the car that I would use for such a trip.

From their website: http://www.exagon-motors.com/en/autonomie.php

Autonomy at a constant speed of 90 km/h : 288 km

~180 miles on 150kWh at ~55mph. Tesla can almost do that with 40kWh.

Seems like it would be a little painful. I am not bashing your decision about this car. It does seem as if it will surely be $250,000+. I personally am happy in the way Tesla has moved. The world doesn't need more rich person toy manufacturers in my opinion.

I really think the Zoe is a great car. But the low price tag is based off a battery lease. When you factor it in we are looking at LEAF price range. And well 43kW 3 phase charging means nothing to us North America people. I do personally would take 43kW charging assuming you can get it supplied easily. I really like the idea of just sucking AC straight from the grid.


But lets stop all the bickering. It appears that most everyone would get an EV of some type. The people that would get petroleum based vehicles seem to be all over the map, with the noticeable absense of SUVs. The thing I find most interesting is that most of the alternate cars being suggested are priced much lower than the Model S.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I wish you the best of luck with that... personally, I don't think it will ever happen because Tesla DC will not become the international charging standard.

It doesn't have to be "the" international charging standard. Superchargers are relatively cheap, and not very many are required, so Tesla alone can easily cover the country if they decide to do so.

Why did you leave out the Furtive-eGT from the list? It has a 150kWh battery and is the car that I would use for such a trip.

At $250k, it's irrelevant. I'd pay maybe $60k for it - that's what it's worth to *me*. It's small and unpractical. A bigger, more capable car like the Model X is worth more like $100k to me.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

But lets stop all the bickering

probably a good plan... suggesting that I might prefer an alternative EV to the Model S is clearly beyond the comprehension of many here :wink:

 

[TESLAficionado]

on topic - I would consider to get the 5 series BMW in about 1-2 years time from now...

Hi Kevin - I do think there is a significant market chance for the Model S in Europe, and especially in Switzerland (that has the higherst Tesla/citizen rate worldwide btw). Maybe the Model S is not that attractive to the "regular" (super)sportscar customer but surely it is for the E-Class, BMW 5, Audi A6 crowd. And I see MANY of those on the road here in Switzerland.

However the 200'000 Euro Furtive-eGT is playing in a different league price-wise where they compete against Aston Martin, Laborghini, Ferrari etc. - not sure if the majority of this even tinier market cares about EVs and greencars in general. In regards to quality I would be concerned with the interior of the Furtive-GT with the price this car comes... especially when you aim for customers that can easily pay 200k Euros for a funride

 

[Jason S]

I believe I answered that question in my first post in this thread... a ZOE and Furtive-eGT... why are you confused?


For the record, with 0 to 100 km/h (~62mph) in 3.6 s, 287 km/h (~180mph) top speed, 2+2 configuration, and a level of luxury to die for, the Furtive-eGT really is not "like a Roadster" (which I love).

I'm confused because it appears to me that saying you would buy a Furtive-eGT is roughly the same as saying I would buy an Audi Hybrid. They don't have a delivery date for either car as far as I can tell. I might as well say I'd buy a next-gen Roadster instead.

 

[daniel]

At $250k, it's irrelevant.

I didn't realize the eGT costs a quarter of a million dollars! Yep, at that price I think it's irrelevant to the discussion, though there will be buyers. And it's not actually available? Well, that makes it truly irrelevant. "What car would you buy...?" should be answered with a car you actually can buy. Hey, I'd have bought a Zap Obvio, but they never actually made it. That kind of takes it out of the running. But for a quarter of a million bucks, the eGT darn well better be a better-constructed car than the Model S at a measly fifty grand for the base model.

 

[Jason S]

I might be wrong about it not being available. It doesn't seem available to the US, but might be in the UK? Heck, Model S doesn't have firm pricing or delivery dates for UK so it could be considered just as theoretical from that PoV. I compared to Audi Hybrid because it seems near future, but not right now.

 

[Doug_G]

Your assumption is wrong. I considered buying a Model S to support Tesla even though it is enormous by European standards and much more car than I need. However, the lack of clarity on 3 Phase, a proprietary DC charging system, the 17" screen, and a very tatty example in Geneva, finally made the decision for me.

Being too big for Europe, sure. The "tatty example" is because there weren't many early betas, and tens of thousands of people got in and out of the thing and pretty much trashed it - not a great reason. They've already said they're doing 3-phase. And the connector, well, they're not wrong about the "standard" fast charge connectors sucking.

I'm sorry, but I just don't like the Model S.... the Roadster is a classic british sports car with all the weaknesses that entails (it even leaks in the rain) and that is what I really like!

That's like saying you prefer British cooking. :tongue: My Roadster doesn't leak in the rain!

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

I might be wrong about it not being available. It doesn't seem available to the US, but might be in the UK? Heck, Model S doesn't have firm pricing or delivery dates for UK so it could be considered just as theoretical from that PoV. I compared to Audi Hybrid because it seems near future, but not right now.

I've seen the pre-production car and the build quality was truly top quality... one of the nicest cars I've ever seen. Full production version should be at the Paris show in September with delivery in mid 2013.

If you're interested you can find lots of reviews including this http://green.autoblog.com/2011/07/18/video-nicolas-prost-drives-exagon-furtive-egt-magny-cours/

You are correct that pricing and availability for the Model S is not available in the UK and best guess from Tesla when I last asked was late 2013.