In praise of slower supercharging

[Fredneck]

Do you not have charging at home?
In my almost 5 years, I can count on 1 hand the inconveniences. I have 80k miles so I have avoided probably 8 oil changes and 240 gas station stops. I did do 1 service so I will call that a wash with 1 tranny flush. My repairs have been below average of other cars.
Every single one of those inconveniences are gone with today's charging options and a M3LR that we use in tighter situations. I have a 70D so I got a discount for some of the inconveniences.
I am wondering what houses you are buying? My cheapest since a townhouse in 1998 was $300k or so. The townhouse was $118k but ignoring inflation isn't very fair.

My use case is a degenerate case where charging at home doesn't help me so much. I drive 125 miles each way once a week with around 100 miles of local driving at the destination. So two charges are mandatory. Because of the locations of the chargers, even if I start with a 90% charge at home, I would have to charge twice to return home. The only thing charging at home would accomplish is shortening my time at the first charger (which is also the last charger).

That's one of the issues with the Supercharging network that people don't seem to get. Stations that are spaced at arbitrary locations around 70 to 125 miles apart are not suitable for long trip driving. People simple don't want to take 30 minutes every two hours to charge. Placing chargers more closely spaced allows EVs to use more of their range and push the distance enough that people are ready to stop and have a meal. In essence, regardless of the range of the car, the spacing of the chargers determines how often the car has to be stopped to charge. Once the chargers are more like 25 miles apart the EVs will be able to use the full range of their batteries and match the human need to stop.

 

[Fredneck]

I'm no fan boy, and also have some concerns relating to issues discussed on TMC, but before buying any EV I researched as well as I could and planned accordingly. That's why Tesla (by choice) was not my first or second EV. My dad still drives an EV with 50 mile winter range, and he loves it - because he slightly changed his expectations of driving and the car meets his needs very well.

I feel bad that you take the stated view above. Relative to your expectations, it sounds as though you have justification to feel let down. But there are so many pluses compared with most alternatives when you take all factors into account.

I'm not sure what I said that you are replying to. Most of my unsatisfied expectations are with Tesla as a company. They still have not addressed numerous issues, I believe this is mostly because they are financially squeezed. This has resulted in them focusing on the Model 3 and tending to ignore the customers who have spent much more money per unit on the S and X. With the Y coming out this will get even worse.

I'd love to hear about the pluses and why you think they are significant.

Unless you are an extreme-use case, then charging at home whenever you can, using superchargers for long journeys and from time to time dealing with the hassles you describe is, imo, not at all unreasonable. I would agree that without viable charging as part of your daily routine, (charge at home very important, maybe at work but usually have to share) then the picture is rather different. I could not manage without home charging.

You do realize that something like 40% of the population are not in situations that would allow home charging, right? In my case it is my driving pattern that home charging provides no benefit for. Please see my prior post. That is not any source of discontent on my part. My real issue with charging is that it's not currently adequate for a trip "experience" even close to that of an ICE. I know someone who sold her model X because a trip she took was half again as long in the X as a Mercedes. I think she might have planned it better, but still, it's not competitive on trips with ICE given the current charging infrastructure.

I get that Tesla (from a marketing view) would love everyone to believe they will be equal or better in every regard with a Tesla than an ICE vehicle. Clearly, that's not going to be true. But my experience over 5 years is that the benefits of EV far outweigh the downside, and it doesn't take much in the way of changes in use and expectations to make an EV the obvious choice in the majority of use cases.

Of course, that's an individual opinion and everyone will need to make their own. I think most people won't like the current state of EVs available and so I suggest they not stick their toe in the $40,000 water.

Remember that most Tesla owners start off any statement with "I love my car", followed with general lamentation about Tesla's appalling communication and finally some specific issues that may have cropped up with their car.

Yeah, I love my car too, but I can't any longer say I love driving it like I used to. It doesn't try to drive me off the road or into oncoming traffic any more, but I just have a bad taste in my mouth. Also, I've been driving the truck for the last month and I've gotten to like it again. At least all the controls are right there where they should be, I don't have to take my eyes off the road to work them and they do exactly what I expect them to do... every time. Oh yeah, I only fill the tank once per week and it doesn't even take 10 minutes.

 

[David99]

I'm heavily affected by the slow charge rate at superchargers. I do many long distance trips and it has added a lot more time to each stop. And let's be honest, it already is an inconvenience having to stop so often. As mentioned above, on road trips you have to take every supercharger. They are mostly spaced out too far to be able to skip. If you can, it requires charging to a high level which is now extremely slow.

Here are some numbers that show the difference between when my car was new compared to now and how bad the situations really is.

Based on 260 k miles in my Model S I found an average charging stop is adding 120 rated miles or 40 kWh. It used to take 23 min when I got the car. Now it takes 43 min. That's almost twice as long. Longer legs, bad weather, winter or head wind require charging more and that's where the slow down really hits you. My charge rate tapers down so much it gets silly.

A charge from 6% to 90% takes 1 h 16 min!
Here is an example from a recent trip: I charged in Ogalala, NE for 1h 10 min from 4% to 88%, then driving to the next supercharger 123 miles west took 1h 30 min. I arrived at just 8%. Average speed was 80 (75 speed limit). It was clear weather and 40F. Not even bad conditions. How sad is it if charge time and drive time are so close together

Charging to 100% now takes over 3 hours! Yes on a supercharger.

The slow down in charge speed didn't come over night and not only recently. A software update several months ago caused a noticeable slow down for everyone. That's when a lot of people noticed. But Tesla did slow down all cars for a long time just gradually and also based on mileage. I started to notice it 3 years ago.

They were smart hiding it, though. The initial charge rate was always the same. The taper just came in faster and stronger. But when you first plug in and check you see the same high charge rate and think all is good. Recently they allowed the old cars to peak at 130 kW. That was only for a few seconds, though and it dropped very quickly. It only lasted a few week. I have seen it a few times. Now my car doesn't even reach peak 110 kW any more. Temperature related slow down of the charge speed have also been tightened. The battery has to be warmer now to get the full charge speed. A battery temperature of just over 20 C used to be enough to get full speed. Now a 24 C battery causes the charge to be just at 44 kW.

So the problem has many levels and we see all these things affect the charge speed. I used to love road trips. Now they are just a drag and I feel screwed over by Tesla. The $90k car I bought is now worth crap. I have no problem that technology moved on and the Model 3 is better in many ways for less. What makes it so upsetting is how Tesla has downgraded and crippled my car down. It's not degradation, it's Tesla's software.

 

[Vapormat]

well my model S which is a 2015 85D has sufferd the slower charge rates and also reduced range since the updates, A bit like apple did with older phones and IOS its all gone slower to charge, reduced range which is not the way to treat people who supported tesla motors and the brand in the early days. considering the fast charger network seems to be getting busier by the day I wouldn't have expected older cars to get slower charge times. hardly a way to free up super chargers.

If this becomes a tesla policy to penalize cars which are just 4 years old then tesla will not be getting any more of my money on a replacement in the future. my range has gone from 240 miles to just about 200 miles in a few months. and it cant be battery degradation as it was so fast and I already had the main battery replaced by tesla at 42k

shame on you tesla, we were the ones championing the brand to so many, yet you have kicked us in the teeth.

 

[Fredneck]

I'm heavily affected by the slow charge rate at superchargers. I do many long distance trips and it has added a lot more time to each stop. And let's be honest, it already is an inconvenience having to stop so often. As mentioned above, on road trips you have to take every supercharger. They are mostly spaced out too far to be able to skip. If you can, it requires charging to a high level which is now extremely slow.

Here are some numbers that show the difference between when my car was new compared to now and how bad the situations really is.

Based on 260 k miles in my Model S I found an average charging stop is adding 120 rated miles or 40 kWh. It used to take 23 min when I got the car. Now it takes 43 min. That's almost twice as long. Longer legs, bad weather, winter or head wind require charging more and that's where the slow down really hits you. My charge rate tapers down so much it gets silly.

A charge from 6% to 90% takes 1 h 16 min!
Here is an example from a recent trip: I charged in Ogalala, NE for 1h 10 min from 4% to 88%, then driving to the next supercharger 123 miles west took 1h 30 min. I arrived at just 8%. Average speed was 80 (75 speed limit). It was clear weather and 40F. Not even bad conditions. How sad is it if charge time and drive time are so close together

Charging to 100% now takes over 3 hours! Yes on a supercharger.

The slow down in charge speed didn't come over night and not only recently. A software update several months ago caused a noticeable slow down for everyone. That's when a lot of people noticed. But Tesla did slow down all cars for a long time just gradually and also based on mileage. I started to notice it 3 years ago.

They were smart hiding it, though. The initial charge rate was always the same. The taper just came in faster and stronger. But when you first plug in and check you see the same high charge rate and think all is good. Recently they allowed the old cars to peak at 130 kW. That was only for a few seconds, though and it dropped very quickly. It only lasted a few week. I have seen it a few times. Now my car doesn't even reach peak 110 kW any more. Temperature related slow down of the charge speed have also been tightened. The battery has to be warmer now to get the full charge speed. A battery temperature of just over 20 C used to be enough to get full speed. Now a 24 C battery causes the charge to be just at 44 kW.

So the problem has many levels and we see all these things affect the charge speed. I used to love road trips. Now they are just a drag and I feel screwed over by Tesla. The $90k car I bought is now worth crap. I have no problem that technology moved on and the Model 3 is better in many ways for less. What makes it so upsetting is how Tesla has downgraded and crippled my car down. It's not degradation, it's Tesla's software.

I think more accurately it is degradation that the software has to limit by reducing the charging rate. I think it is fairly clear that they have been throttling the charging rates on the cars. The only question is why and the only answer that makes sense is to prevent further deterioration to the battery.

Yeah, in a way this is dishonest of Tesla. Heck, on the X and S they don't even warranty the capacity of the battery. But they want to prevent word spreading of capacity decreases over time. Slow charging rates at Superchargers affect a lot fewer people so that is a better choice for them. We'll see if the same thing happens with the more recent S and X models or the 3.

 

[Battpower]

I'd love to hear about the pluses and why you think they are significant.

From your thorough response I think you read my comments as intended. Your use, expectations and observations seem very reasonable and I think make total sense for anyone considering any EV purchase to take into account. Your comments highlight definite areas that must be addressed. With Model 3 (and presumably Y too) potentially 'swamping' some supercharger locations being inevitable, this will need substantial investment to keep up with demand. But I think that's a good thing in a way. (That there is now an established need / market). In Europe there is a somewhat fragmented charging network growing up outside of Supercharging. I know in France even most villages have charging points in central locations, but still no foolproof and simple way to make use of it. Bigger energy players are getting in on the market too who may end up being the dominant players. This seems potentially very similar to the miriad small oil / gasoline companies that used to exist. There are one or two networks that let you pay using your credit / debit card without messing with accounts or apps. All this needs to happen, get shaken up, reform, and get improved ASAP.

I struggle to decide how to view the situation of owners who face your kind of issues (accepting that some but not all apply to me too). Is it evidence of what future development must address? Proof of fundamental flaws in the technology? Mis-selling and or misrepresentation? Just a step along the way to the future?

I was chatting to a guy the other day. A salesman, travelling many miles around the UK, just swapped a BMW for Model 3. He loved the driving experience and the car, but had no idea how it was going to work out as a tool for his job. He had no home charger and no easy access to local superchargers, so he was bound to be very dependent on fast charging on the go. In the UK there are not many superchargers compared with (human) population density, so the network is already open to sudden an unpredictable saturation making its value and that of the cars much less.

The ongoing chargegate / batterygate discussions are all heightened because they retrospectively change the value of what owners thought they had purchased. As the cars become more mainstream, I think this issue will get much worse before it gets better.

In its claims for range / charging times / battery life, Tesla (and others) want to make the very best claims they can. At present there are no clear obligations to also point out worst case scenarios. The EV package of pros and cons is very different to ICE vehicles (obviously) and marketing departments are pushing that (unreasonably imo) to the point of misrepresentation.

Marketing is not known for unbiased and impartial representation of reality, and given the current phase of EV development this is fertile ground for dissatisfaction amongst buyers.

From my own experience two huge factors effecting likely ownership experience are use patterns in a particular climate and availability of home / workplace charging. While you are feeling the smooth fake leather and playing games and looking to be an eco warrior (all of which the sales process thrives on) giving these two factors the weight they deserve is imo crucial.

 

[Battpower]

I'd love to hear about the pluses and why you think they are significant.

Whoops.... forgot the positives. Now, I sense a potential fanboy trap..... but here goes any way:

These are positives for me and I fully accept that everyone's situations are different. I have 2 EV's at present. A 40kwh Renault Zoe, and a Raven MS LR.

Applies to both cars -
Much smoother ride than comparabe ICE car.
Instant accelaration matches or better than comparable ICE.
Much lower routine service bills.
Fewer parts needing routine replacement (eg: timing belts, brake pads)
Lower fuel bills.
No visits to gas stations = much improved diet (fewer snacks / less candy!)
Distinctive design says I'm trying to be different (in a good way hopefully!)

Applies to Zoe -
Relatively low purchase price (17k GBP with owned battery)
Efficient battery use with AC / heating heat pump
Very low maintenance cost (typically 70 GBP a year / 20 k miles
Exceptional ride for small car.
Pretty low depreciation.
Long range (140 to 190 miles) from 40 kwh.
13000 miles annual miles fuel cost me 400 gbp including all my domestic electric use, plus a 800 GBP goverment feed in tarrif annual payment.

Applies to Model S -
Iconic car. Whatever Musk / Tesla does, the Model S was the car that brought about mainstream EV's.
Exceptional ride quality (& adaptive).
In good weather / idea temperatures, the car still represents state of the art.
7 going on 8 years since car released means it is a relatively proven EV. Do your research and you will know what you might get.
OTA updates (plus & minus I'll agree, but fixes & improvements still possible)
Tesla still giving some (even if reduced) consideration to quite old cars. Better than most manufacturers.
Obviously supercharging is a big plus compared with other EV's but not as convenient as gas.
Makes driving an EV as a main car possible in many cases.
Large screen / vehicle controls / app features still leading the field in most cases.
Allows you to participate in self driving development.
Pushing envelope with mainstream use of materials like Aluminium & alloys - your car is different special.
Means you can be an eco warrior without having to drive a Prius or Leaf.
Way more viable than the Zoe for long journeys, especially if you plan ahead for stops / charging etc.
Free supercharging.
Good service centre staff.

Of course I could do a similar list of stuff that's cr*p about the Model S, but there are positives.

 

[Max*]

I agree with the general sentiment: I'm not buying another Tesla with the expectations to use it for long distance travel.

The supercharging stations build-out has been slower than the increased demand from the Model X and Model 3 - there are lines (not even at peak travel times) up and down I95 in the NorthEast. This adds travel time.

My charging times have slowed down, not as much as some of the people affected by chargegate/rangegate. But trips where I would charge for ~1hr now take ~1.5hours.

The Model 3 charges MUUUUUCH faster than my S, but given the wait times at superchargers to get a spot, that becomes a show stopper too.


That, and the multitude of issues I've had with my S (repair after repair), I also don't recommend Tesla's to anyone.

I'd probably buy another 3, but then again in a few years if Tesla starts nerfing the 3's capabilities, I might change my mind...

 

[one-ten]

I like(d) my S 60 very much, but now on a trip of 200 miles, supercharging costs more time than the actual trip :-( ..
Terrible range now with the somewhat colder weather, especialy since I don't have regen anymore on my commute now..
After supercharging the car uses 500-700 wh per kilometer for several minutes and you use part of your supercharged kW's instantly again.
Permanent TPMS error because I will not pay for something that was broken by a software update.
I can only use my S for short trips now :-( . When I make a longer trip I use my wifes Kona EV, that always uses moderate wh's in every weather and has instant max regen.

 

[Fredneck]

I like(d) my S 60 very much, but now on a trip of 200 miles, supercharging costs more time than the actual trip :-( ..
Terrible range now with the somewhat colder weather, especialy since I don't have regen anymore on my commute now..
After supercharging the car uses 500-700 wh per kilometer for several minutes and you use part of your supercharged kW's instantly again.
Permanent TPMS error because I will not pay for something that was broken by a software update.
I can only use my S for short trips now :-( . When I make a longer trip I use my wifes Kona EV, that always uses moderate wh's in every weather and has instant max regen.

That's kinda the ultimate phone feature, breaking something with an update and not fixing it. Wait, this is a CAR, right???