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Infiniti LE

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#81
After all the discussion, the deathknell of the Infiniti LE would be the lack of a TMS. Does anyone know if the LE has a TMS ? Or, will they go the route of the TX and AZ Leafs with the high temperatures there causing rapid battery pack degradation ??
 
#83
 
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#84
cwerdna said:
Infiniti Boss Puts Electric LE Sedan on Indefinite Hold; Cites Product Priorities as Reason for Delay
Infiniti Delays LE Electric Sedan Production Plans | PluginCars.com

On that note, the Infiniti boss in question came from Audi. When at Audi, supposedly he did the below and then "clarified".
REPORT: Audi of America president de Nysschen calls Chevy Volt slams electric vehicles - Autoblog
Audi's de Nysschen Clarifies Volt Remarks, Doesn't Recall Calling It 'Car for Idiots'
Click to expand...
If Tesla can ramp up production to over 100k vehicles in a few years, there might not be an Infinity or Audi product line left. These guys better smarten up.
 
#87
A few of in LA went to a consumer survey on this car over a year ago. They showed us these pictures and gave us capabilities. There were Leaf, Roadster, Volt and Mini E drivers on the panel. We told them what "no compromises" means to a Tesla owner. Fascinating that the Leaf and Mini owners had such low expectations and the Tesla owners were all above 150 mile range minimum. Since it was a lux car they were gunning for the new Tesla coming out.

I would say that they had something in the works pretty far along but have been (internally) totally embarrassed by the Model S specs and reviews.


Classic ---back to the drawing board!
 
#88
cwerdna said:
FWIW, there is Renault-Nissan Alliance Aims to Soon Hit Mark of 100,000 Electric Vehicles Sold. Per that article "Currently, the Alliances electric vehicle sales sit a bit above 86,000 units."
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None of which compete with the model S.

You are comparing short commuter cars with a real car that happens to be an EV.

MB, BMW, Audi, Lexus, and Infinity sales are obviously going to suffer, and if Tesla can get production of the Model S and Model X up in the next few years, some of these competing brands and sub-brands are going to be in big trouble.
 
#89
qwk said:
None of which compete with the model S.

You are comparing short commuter cars with a real car that happens to be an EV.
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Umm... most of those cars are "real cars". But yes, none of them have nearly the range of the Model S.

The guy at My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Two Years, 76,000 miles, 12 bars and 232 GID (now 11 bars) and 11 Months, 36,000 Miles In A Nissan Leaf Electric Car? No Problem put over 78K miles on his Leaf in a bit over 2 years.

- - - Updated - - -

vfx said:
I would say that they had something in the works pretty far along but have been (internally) totally embarrassed by the Model S specs and reviews.
Click to expand...
I physically saw the Infinite LE concept on a stage last year at Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance : Welcome.

I haven't followed the car closely but most sources stated that it would have at 24 kwh battery pack, which is identical the capacity of the Leaf's pack. I'd guess its aerodynamics might a bit worse than the Leaf --> worse range than the Leaf.

But yeah, perhaps they figured that it'd be uncompetitive vs. Model S and perhaps they want to see how the ELR and i3 do? I'd also imagine that the Model S has gotten better reviews and been more accepted than they expected.
 
#90
cwerdna said:
Umm... most of those cars are "real cars". But yes, none of them have nearly the range of the Model S.

The guy at My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Two Years, 76,000 miles, 12 bars and 232 GID (now 11 bars) and 11 Months, 36,000 Miles In A Nissan Leaf Electric Car? No Problem put over 78K miles on his Leaf in a bit over 2 years.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but a car with a 45-70 mile real life range is not a real car. Most people will have to have another car in order to live life, that's just the way it is. A real car also doesn't lose 10% or more of it's range in a year(AZ comes to mind).

We have a 85kwh Model S as our only car, and it still could use more range(superchargers will alleviate some of this). A leaf or similar, would not even be an option.
 
#91
^^^
The Leaf is a real car, despite its range being way shorter than a Model S. There are plenty of other folks who have put on plenty of miles on a year or their Leaf, but not as much as that guy.

Just because it's not practical for road trips doesn't make it not a "real car". Not everyone can afford a $70K+ car (upfront cost before tax credits) nor wants to buy a car from an automaker that has turned a profit only once (just barely) in its 10 year history and a car w/an unknown reliability record.

Yes, for those w/cars the range of the Leaf, most EV owners will need to keep an ICEV as a 2nd car/"range extender". For those who choose an EV w/the range in the neighborhood of a Leaf, I'd wager that for the vast majority of them, it suitable for at least 80% of their trips, maybe even 90 to 95%.

I've posted part this elsewhere before:
Per http://nhts.ornl.gov/2009/pub/stt.pdf (from NHTS Publications) on page 54, the average commute speed in a private vehicle in 09 was 28.87 mph. Also for private vehicles, the average commute travel trip length was 12.09 miles and average commute travel time was 22.85 minutes.

On page 21, it says that average vehicle trip length in miles for all purposes is only 9.9 miles.

As for the Phoenix Leaf battery capacity loss, yes. It sucks. It's too bad the Leaf has no battery TMS. I wouldn't ever recommend anyone in Phoenix or a hot climate buy a Leaf. They should only lease or get a EV/PHEV w/TMS instead.
 
#92
It is unfortunate for Nissan that Infiniti is shelving the LE. The LE was really the only midsize sedan EV on the drawing board anywhere outside Tesla. If they had bumped the battery up to 30-32 kWh or so, and kept the price under $50k, it probably would have sold pretty well. There are alot of people who want an EV, cant afford a Model S (particularly now that the 40 kWh is no more) but simply need a little bit more range than the leaf can offer, or want something that looks "normal". The LE had the potential to fill that gap, potentially several years before Gen III hits the market.
 
#93
qwk said:
Sorry, but a car with a 45-70 mile real life range is not a real car. Most people will have to have another car in order to live life, that's just the way it is.
Click to expand...

Why so hard on the Leaf? I leased a 2012 in Dec '12, and went to the gas station to buy gas for the first time since then today...to buy gas for the lawn mower! I aspire to Gen III ownership some day, but the S is more car in dollars and size than I prefer. In the meantime, the Leaf serves a useful purpose. BEV's are addictive, maybe the Leaf is the Gateway drug :wink:
 
#94
Hmm... I think this decision is a disaster for Nissan. Unfortunately I also had the feeling that they weren't going to put a bigger battery pack in the car. Unless they really upped the battery versus the Leaf I can't see them selling many in that market segment.
 
#95
qwk said:
Sorry, but a car with a 45-70 mile real life range is not a real car. Most people will have to have another car in order to live life, that's just the way it is
Click to expand...
To further support the notion that a car w/the range of a Leaf will work fine for a decent % of people for the vast majority of their trips, from Living With an EV for a Week – Day Five | The Truth About Cars
This aversion to change isn’t unique to my religious sect, it’s practically an American virtue. The real impediment to EV proliferation isn’t the range, economy, economics, or availability, it’s change. The average American commutes less than 6 miles in each direction a day. Even with a lunch break where you head home and back to work again we’re talking 24 miles. If you consider the adage of 12,000 miles a year (according to the US census) that expands to a still-manageable 33 miles a day. If we look at the ownership demographics by household, 9.1% of us don’t have any cars, 33.8% of us own one car per household leaving the 57.1% majority owning 2 or more cars. Indeed the “average” household owns 2.8 cars. While I’m of the firm opinion that EV’s can’t fit everyone’s needs, they can satisfy 90-95% of our needs and could easily be that second or third car in the garage. But that would require a change in how we look at transportation.

Right now the car is a freedom device. We know that if we wanted to, we could hop our car/truck/SUV and drive from California to New York. It doesn’t matter to us that we never do, we know we could if we wanted to. The car is more than just transportation, it’s liberty and adventure on wheels. Part of what allows this freedom is the near instant fuelling ability and the range of around 300+ miles. Whenever there is a car that strays from this norm, we point it out. We praise a car if it gets 500 miles of range and damn it to failure if it manages “only” 200. This is part of the reason cited for the slow development of natural gas infrastructure, Americans can’t stomach a 5 minute fill-up every day let alone a multi-hour charge.
Click to expand...
It does point to good reasons why unfortunately BEVs will likely have slow adoption in the US.

I don't disagree that most BEV non-Model S owners will have an ICEV as a 2nd car. I'm guessing that the majority of Model S owners have/are still keeping at least 1 ICEV, but not necessarily as a "range extender".
 
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#96
OK, range is one thing. The leaf doesn't get quite enough range for me, but in general it's hard for people to figure out what they "need". However, performance is another matter entirely. The specs for the LE called for a 134 horsepower motor, a bit more than the Leaf's 108 hp motor. The Mercedes C class does 0-60 in 7.4 seconds and is about worst in it's class (the BMW 328 does 0-60 in 5.9 seconds). The Infinity G sedan, which LE similar to except it would be more expensive has a 328 hp engine and does 0-60 in 5.4 seconds. It's one thing to say that the Leaf drives surprisingly well for a small car (even if it takes over 10 seconds to do 0-60), but nobody is going to want a luxury car that slow.
 
#98
cwerdna said:
^^^
The Leaf is a real car, despite its range being way shorter than a Model S. There are plenty of other folks who have put on plenty of miles on a year or their Leaf, but not as much as that guy.

Just because it's not practical for road trips doesn't make it not a "real car". Not everyone can afford a $70K+ car (upfront cost before tax credits) nor wants to buy a car from an automaker that has turned a profit only once (just barely) in its 10 year history and a car w/an unknown reliability record.

Yes, for those w/cars the range of the Leaf, most EV owners will need to keep an ICEV as a 2nd car/"range extender". For those who choose an EV w/the range in the neighborhood of a Leaf, I'd wager that for the vast majority of them, it suitable for at least 80% of their trips, maybe even 90 to 95%.

I've posted part this elsewhere before:
Per http://nhts.ornl.gov/2009/pub/stt.pdf (from NHTS Publications) on page 54, the average commute speed in a private vehicle in 09 was 28.87 mph. Also for private vehicles, the average commute travel trip length was 12.09 miles and average commute travel time was 22.85 minutes.

On page 21, it says that average vehicle trip length in miles for all purposes is only 9.9 miles.

As for the Phoenix Leaf battery capacity loss, yes. It sucks. It's too bad the Leaf has no battery TMS. I wouldn't ever recommend anyone in Phoenix or a hot climate buy a Leaf. They should only lease or get a EV/PHEV w/TMS instead.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on leaf price and range (too bad for hot weather but they will address the issue in next upgrade). You don't want to pay additional 50k for 100 miles of range (60kwh models give you around 200 miles). I think 80 to 95 is ideal range for daily commute (heck many goes below that). I think by the time gen3 come out you will have many option in that category for EV i.e. 3 to 5 years down the road.

Also nissan will implement battery charging station at dealers (not sure they are totally free) but something better than nothing :cool:
 
#99
I don't think the Leaf will address the hot weather issue until a redesign adds a battery thermal management system of some form. It will need a redesign to get a radiator hose to the batteries. Nissan's tone doesn't sound like they have fully admitted the problem yet.

Unfortunately for me the FFE is unlikely to get L3 charging or any updates unless the Tesla sales push them along. I would prefer an FFE with L3 charging to a new leaf with thermally controlled batteries. The infiniti LE is likely to be vaporware for 4-6 years in my estimation. It is a different team at Infiniti and they don't love BEVs.
 
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