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Initiative 976
- Thread starter N8DGR8
- Start date
The limit of scaling is they are running on built streets. So the width of the cars are limited by lane width. Also the curve of the road limits the length. Purpose built railways can support wider cars and longer trains, like NYC or Tokyo.
The frequency is also limited because they have to stop on the same rail. The time it takes to slow down/speed up decides the minimum safety gap between trains. The more people you want to squeeze in, the slower trains accelerate/decelerate, so the gap will be bigger. Buses are way more agile to move between lanes, so they can run much closer on highway.
PWlakewood
Active Member
I'm all for mass transit, carpool, autonomous buses, road improvements, maintenance, etc etc. I pay my fair share of taxes already so when sound transit uses the wrong value of our cars to base how much they charge us to license them thats where I draw the line. Collect the correct amount based on the real value and not some inflated number just so you can fill the sound transit coffers illegally. Sound transit reeks of corruption and greed and this initiative will address the issue better than anyone else has in the past. I may not like Tim eyman but this is the best way to get the point across and fix the problem. If you disagree please feel free to come up with a better way, but until you correct the fee schedule the problem will still exist.
im.thatoneguy
Member
As someone constantly stuck behind buses on Denny or 3rd Ave I have to disagree. Busses are constantly blocking all traffic while loading offloading, there are no super maneuverable busses zigzagging through traffic.
And then, a bus doesn't make it down Virginia and all of 5th Ave is blocked by a double bus stopping all road traffic.
I often question if buses are actually relieving traffic or causing it. Around 6pm it seems like traffic is gridlocked because of buses stopping every block or buses not clearing intersections etc.
I've never once been inconvenienced by light rail and the light rail follows its own grade. There are zero corners I can think of on the red line that follow city streets. The only time the light rail even shares a grade with surface streets is on Rainier and that's a straight B Line once it descends to street level. It then rises to elevated tracks before turning into the tunnel and then runs through the rail yard before being in its own dedicated tunnel until Northgate.
And then, a bus doesn't make it down Virginia and all of 5th Ave is blocked by a double bus stopping all road traffic.
I often question if buses are actually relieving traffic or causing it. Around 6pm it seems like traffic is gridlocked because of buses stopping every block or buses not clearing intersections etc.
I've never once been inconvenienced by light rail and the light rail follows its own grade. There are zero corners I can think of on the red line that follow city streets. The only time the light rail even shares a grade with surface streets is on Rainier and that's a straight B Line once it descends to street level. It then rises to elevated tracks before turning into the tunnel and then runs through the rail yard before being in its own dedicated tunnel until Northgate.
im.thatoneguy
Member
If you want to be against light rail that's fine, but at least do it for reasons that are true. But capacity is not one of them. The 4 car trains can handle 800 people per stop. No way to handle that volume with a bus.
I strongly believe the legislators should have resolved the taxation rate to base it on the true value of the car. Their failure to do this is driving a lot of success of I-976.
With that being said I fail to see why people can't see I-976 going too far. From what you said it sounds like you want only one of the things it does.
- Limit annual license fees for vehicles weighing under 10,000 pounds at $30 except voter-approved charges;
- Base vehicle taxes on the Kelley Blue Book value rather than 85% of the manufacturer's base suggested retail price;
- Repeals local Transportation Benefit District (TBD) fees;
- Repeals the $150 fee on electric vehicles;
- Repeal authorization for certain regional transit authorities, such as Sound Transit, to impose motor vehicle excise taxes; and
- Limits certain taxes and fees related to transportation.
The ones I want are the second one, and I want a little more fairness in the Electric Vehicles tax. It should be truly reflective of the how much an average driver would pay in gas tax. Plus they keep adding more, and within a few years they'll be like 5 EV fees that all have the same name. There is already two of them.
The TBD fees have nothing to do with Sound Transit so why target them?
Before ST3 was passed we already had an RTA tax. What happens to that? My understanding is the ENTIRE rta tax goes away, and we go back to having $30 car tabs (or somewhere around that) until voters approved changes in the future. That would up-end a lot of projects currently in progress that have nothing to do with Sound Transit.
Simply having an initiative to make the vehicle taxes based on KBB values would have been a slam-dunk.
Yup. Yet it was all talk and no action from any of our elected officials. Heck its taking a class action lawsuit to get anything done.
The Ds could have simply modified the formula to be accurate (and avoid this whole fiasco) but there is no way they are decreasing funds for the govt. Hence we have this result which is clever political marketing.
PWlakewood
Active Member
I live in an area that will never really benefit from link light rail so I dont really support that. If I want to commute to seattle I have to drive or take a bus or train which would still involve me driving to the station. My wife use to commute on the sounder daily to seattle and she would spend over 4 hours a day commuting. For us there has been zero to very little in way of benefits which can be said for almost everyone in pierce county. Seattle gets the majority of improvements as does the north and bellevue.
im.thatoneguy
Member
Hahaha, he says while JBLM and Tacoma I5 has been seeing massive construction projects and improvements that have been ongoing for at least the last 5 years.
Street view even is of construction and improvements.
Google Maps
Tacoma is also getting a light rail station as part of the current RTA tax. You'll be able to park downtown and take a train every 10 minutes to Seatac or even Everett with zero traffic when ST3 is done. In the interim you get a ST Express bus. On average there are about 10,000 boardings a day for the ST-Express buses to Seattle from Pierce county. And another 16,000 Sounder train boardings. That's 26,000 cars you aren't competing with on I5.
"But other than that, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
PWlakewood
Active Member
Seriously you must not live here if you cant see how bad it still is. Oh and when is st3 supposed to be done?
I dont Live in Tacoma so if I wanted to use any future projects you speak of I would have to drive my car to the area that it benefits. Like I said I'm all for taxes, improvements, light rail, etc but not if the money comes from a deceptive tax that rips us taxpayers off.
Is it really that difficult to see past all the bs the media and dems spew about i976? Open your eyes and read a little you might be surprised to see how much your being ripped off.
@Kuhz already posted that his license fees would be 1150 for his model s. Doesnt that seem a little out of whack. They are valuing his car at a higher rate then what he paid for it. My license fees will be just under 700 for my 2013 model S.
I use to commute from Lakewood to Woodinville daily. It has not gotten any better over the years even with all the so called improvements, blah blah, blah. Spending 4 1/2 hours or more per day in traffic every single day with no improvement is plenty of proof that the projects have done very little to ease congestion in the Puget sound. Ask anyone who commutes the i5 corridor.
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im.thatoneguy
Member
You've seen the population increase by over 100,000 people during the last few years and not seen traffic change? That's your proof it's working. And yes most of the benefits are in the future but that's because our forebearers saddled us with billions in under investment debt that we are now having to start paying. Blame the boomers for refusing to get started on this decades ago and all of a sudden needing it after the fact.
As to RTA fees. The average car in Washington uses over $1,000/year in road maintenance and infrastructure construction so EVEN with $1000 tabs, every car is still using subsidized roads. It's only fair that we pay for it.
And the people who underpay the most are people who live in the exurbs and get nice state funded roads even though there are relatively few tax payers using those roads to their housing developments.
Seattle and other urban transit users pay vastly more into the system than they get out. So to the people who don't use light rail... tio fing bad that this one time you don't directly use it (but still benefit from less congestion) and benefit from other people subsidizing your transit out of the general fund.
As to RTA fees. The average car in Washington uses over $1,000/year in road maintenance and infrastructure construction so EVEN with $1000 tabs, every car is still using subsidized roads. It's only fair that we pay for it.
And the people who underpay the most are people who live in the exurbs and get nice state funded roads even though there are relatively few tax payers using those roads to their housing developments.
Seattle and other urban transit users pay vastly more into the system than they get out. So to the people who don't use light rail... tio fing bad that this one time you don't directly use it (but still benefit from less congestion) and benefit from other people subsidizing your transit out of the general fund.
PWlakewood
Active Member
Show us less congestion. You cant. It's only gotten worse in my 40 plus years living here. Ask anyone that was here in the Puget sound over the same time frame and you will get the same answer even with all the bs improvements. Adding carpool lanes does nothing for the majority of us as we dont have any options to use them. I'm fact the carpool lanes get used by people who aren't supposed to be using them more and more because its such a small chance that you will actually get caught. Show me actual numbers that show commutes have gotten better over the years due to the sound transit projects.
Have you ever had to commute more than 10 Miles per day? How long have you lived in wa and what area? There are plenty of people who benefit but the numbers don't lie and commutes have only gotten worse.
I’m not expecting any of these projects to improve single-occupant vehicle commute times. The region is growing FAST, and these projects at best will help us tread water and keep commutes the same as they are now.
But what happens if we cut these projects? Add population to the existing road/transit capacity with no expansion and you will see truly awful traffic with a “rush hour” that takes up a growing portion of the day.
I agree that car tabs are unfairly calculated. But going to the complete extreme of cutting practically all funding will make us the laughing stock for generations to come.
But what happens if we cut these projects? Add population to the existing road/transit capacity with no expansion and you will see truly awful traffic with a “rush hour” that takes up a growing portion of the day.
I agree that car tabs are unfairly calculated. But going to the complete extreme of cutting practically all funding will make us the laughing stock for generations to come.
Thanks to all for your discussions. I’ve yet to vote, so this thread is definitely useful. From an eastern WA perspective, I really like the carpool lanes because all of my trips in the SeaTac-Everett area have included enough people to utilize them. Traffic is really difficult and stressful for us outsiders. I will probably never use the light rail, but definitely would if I lived there. I spent the summer of 1984 living car-less in Seattle (Fremont) and loved the bus system when combined with bicycling. BTW, in my 50+ years of traveling through Tacoma and across the Narrows Bridge, never once have I seen construction “completed”. I don’t expect that to change in the next 50 years, whether I-976 passes or not.
Thanks to all for your discussions. I’ve yet to vote, so this thread is definitely useful. From an eastern WA perspective, I really like the carpool lanes because all of my trips in the SeaTac-Everett area have included enough people to utilize them. Traffic is really difficult and stressful for us outsiders. I will probably never use the light rail, but definitely would if I lived there. I spent the summer of 1984 living car-less in Seattle (Fremont) and loved the bus system when combined with bicycling. BTW, in my 50+ years of traveling through Tacoma and across the Narrows Bridge, never once have I seen construction “completed”. I don’t expect that to change in the next 50 years, whether I-976 passes or not.
Do you currently have to pay any RTA tax?
My concern about I-976 is that it's going to remove any RTA type tax. where it won't matter if it's Sound Transit or some other agency within the state. This is notable because only people within the servicing area of ST have to pay the massive RTA tax that everyone is so upset with.
I will say part of me is torn because I own 3 vehicles, and I have to pay this ridiculously high RTA tax on all of them. All 3 vehicles are mine, and I'm the only driver of them. It irks me that I'm taxed 3 times simply because I enjoy vehicles. So obviously I'd love to have the dreamy fantasy of $30 per car.
I could use that $2000 on other stuff.
But, I also deeply care about alternative forms of transportation, and I don't believe cars should rule over everything else. People need to have options when it comes to getting around.
Any time I get close to Seattle I take public transit, and the light rail is what I enjoy the most. Last year I had a friend take the Light rail from the UW station to the airport because it was during a massive snow storm, and it was the only way I could get her to the airport. All the buses were running massively late, and without any prediction on when they'd show up. As more stations open up north of Seattle the easier it will be.
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You live in Lakewood and are commuting to Seattle for work every day? Sounds like you and your wife are doing it wrong.
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that’s a bit rude of you don’t you think? The sounder travels from Lakewood to Seattle for a reason. Some people choose not to spend $600,000+ on their homes.
Sure. The options are pay more for housing, find a (likely lower paying) job near Lakewood, or sit in traffic for hours. One way or another, you are going to pay. But don't buy a house in Seattle and then complain that it's more expensive than a house in Lakewood, and don't get a job in Lakewood and complain that it pays less than Seattle jobs, and don't take the high-paying job in Seattle and buy the cheap house in Lakewood and then complain about the commute length. You signed up for it!
im.thatoneguy
Member
You're asking me to show how the lightrail that hasn't been built yet has reduced traffic in Tacoma? Me thinks your expectations are out of whack. Maybe you want me to show how the Bellevue Link line is reducing I90 bridge traffic too?
You said it yourself your wife used to use Sounder. That was one fewer cars in the road. Proof that sounder reduced congestion by 1.
You said it yourself your wife used to use Sounder. That was one fewer cars in the road. Proof that sounder reduced congestion by 1.
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