Interested in Utility Scale Renewables ? Delve into ERCOT

[nwdiver]

How little you understand.

The generators did not 'overbill', so the blame game is over who pays the bill.

Them free market folks got themselves in a bit of a pickle. Market said energy was $9/kWh. Now they're saying that was too high... well... do ya want a free market or don't cha?

It's funny how this is being spun. ERCOT didn't 'do' anything. They stopped capping the price and let the market 'work'.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Not clear. What's your point?

That deferring maintenance at the expense of profit is an issue with electrical providers and distributors everywhere, in all kinds of markets. Certainly not just in TX.

 

[nwdiver]

That deferring maintenance at the expense of profit is an issue with electrical providers and distributors everywhere, in all kinds of markets. Certainly not just in TX.

.... except that everywhere else winterization standards are't voluntary.

 

[mspohr]

That deferring maintenance at the expense of profit is an issue with electrical providers and distributors everywhere, in all kinds of markets. Certainly not just in TX.

Sorry to be picking on Texas but they deserve all of the criticism. Other places have more regulations to prevent Texas sized disasters. Yes, sometimes the regulations don't work but Texas has earned this disaster in the name of "freedumb".

 

[mspohr]

"Texas Watchdog Says Grid Operator Made $16 Billion Error" Texas Watchdog Says Grid Operator Made $16 Billion Error
Amid the deep winter freeze that knocked nearly half of power generation offline, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, known as Ercot, set the price of electricity at the $9,000-a-megawatt-hour maximum -- standard practice during a grid emergency. But Ercot left that price in place days longer than necessary, resulting in massive overcharges, according to Potomac Economics, an independent market monitor hired by the state of Texas to assess Ercot’s performance.

 

[nwdiver]

"Texas Watchdog Says Grid Operator Made $16 Billion Error" Texas Watchdog Says Grid Operator Made $16 Billion Error
Amid the deep winter freeze that knocked nearly half of power generation offline, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, known as Ercot, set the price of electricity at the $9,000-a-megawatt-hour maximum -- standard practice during a grid emergency. But Ercot left that price in place days longer than necessary, resulting in massive overcharges, according to Potomac Economics, an independent market monitor hired by the state of Texas to assess Ercot’s performance.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call it an 'error'. That would be like saying the exchange that lists Gamestock 'errored' in allowing GME to surge. Maybe they should have replaced the $9k/MWh cap sooner but it was the market that was determining the price... it's that what Texans want? FREEEDDUUUMMMMBBBB!!!!!

 

[David_Cary]

The whole thing is just a great example of how true unadulterated capitalism often fails us. It generally requires some basic regulation, especially when it comes to safety/extreme events, to be reasonable.
What is nice to know is the the rest of the US isn't so shortsighted to allow this to happen. Sure, CA has its issues. But the other 48 states or so do just fine. Which now appears fairly remarkable.
This is also a great case study in the perils of federalism. At some point, why should I pay for Texas' short sighted policies? The rate payers there maybe saved money over the last decade, it doesn't seem fair for any bailout from FEMA or whatever federal coffer money is taken from.

 

[nwdiver]

The whole thing is just a great example of how true unadulterated capitalism often fails us. It generally requires some basic regulation, especially when it comes to safety/extreme events, to be reasonable.
What is nice to know is the the rest of the US isn't so shortsighted to allow this to happen. Sure, CA has its issues. But the other 48 states or so do just fine. Which now appears fairly remarkable.
This is also a great case study in the perils of federalism. At some point, why should I pay for Texas' short sighted policies? The rate payers there maybe saved money over the last decade, it doesn't seem fair for any bailout from FEMA or whatever federal coffer money is taken from.

Bill Maher has made the wait time for his solar system a recurring part of his show. CA and TX should find a way to meet in the middle. Firm generation should probably keep working when it gets cold and you shouldn't need 17 AC disconnects for a battery backed PV system.....

I got interconnect permission for a 30kW PV system in TX in ~3 weeks. I would probably be waiting on the 4th engineering review in May 2023 if this was CA....

 

[SageBrush]

"Texas Watchdog Says Grid Operator Made $16 Billion Error" Texas Watchdog Says Grid Operator Made $16 Billion Error
But Ercot left that price in place days longer than necessary, resulting in massive overcharges, according to Potomac Economics,

And they know that how, exactly ? It is not like the blackouts stopped LOL

 

[mspohr]

And they know that how, exactly ? It is not like the blackouts stopped LOL

The rotating load shedding did stop. The high charges didn't

 

[SageBrush]

The rotating load shedding did stop. The high charges didn't

reference ? As in, no blackouts anywhere ? That is not my recollection *at all*, but my memory may be wrong.

 

[mspohr]

reference ? As in, no blackouts anywhere ? That is not my recollection *at all*, but my memory may be wrong.

RTFA!

Rolling blackouts Mon, Tues, Wed. Grid stabilized and rolling load shedding stopped Thursday am but price didn't go down until Sunday.

 

[SageBrush]

Rolling blackouts Mon, Tues, Wed. Grid stabilized and rolling load shedding stopped Thursday am but price didn't go down until Sunday.

Yes, but my question remains unanswered: were there persistent black-outs in the state that were not 'rolling' ?

This article from Thurs, Jan 16 quotes ERCOT as expecting restoration of power to take days.

My understanding of ERCOT was that they upped the generator price cap as a market demand lever, but instituted rolling black-outs when the grid was in danger of collapse and damage. These are different problems and different ERCOT solutions; you should not treat them as the same.

 

[mspohr]

Yes, but my question remains unanswered: were there persistent black-outs in the state that were not 'rolling' ?

This article from Thurs, Jan 16 quotes ERCOT as expecting restoration of power to take days.

My understanding of ERCOT was that they upped the generator price cap as a market demand lever, but instituted rolling black-outs when the grid was in danger of collapse and damage. These are different problems and different ERCOT solutions; you should not treat them as the same.

The load shedding blackouts ended Wednesday. There was persistent damage which caused some people to have longer power loss. These are two different things and you should not treat them as the same.
The price rise was to remedy the capacity shortage which ended Wednesday and the price rise should have ended Wednesday.

 

[mspohr]

Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick spars with last remaining Public Utility Commission member over readjusting energy prices during winter storm

The state’s energy grid operator overcharged power companies by roughly $3 billion after the winter storm — not $16 billion, the chairman of Texas’ utility regulator said Thursday.

www.texastribune.org

Last week, an independent monitor for the Public Utility Commission reported the Electric Reliability Council of Texas overcharged power companies by about $16 billion in the days immediately following the February winter storm which knocked out power for multiple days across the state, leaving people in subfreezing temperatures. The eye-popping number prompted calls for action from elected officials including Patrick demanding the charges be reversed.

 

[mspohr]

Muni utility sues ERCOT as fallout from Texas’ electric power crisis continues

The utility alleged that ERCOT “ran up $20 billion in charges” for five days of energy supply due to its “lack of oversight, preparedness, and failure to follow its own protocols.”

pv-magazine-usa.com

Municipal utility CPS Energy filed a lawsuit against the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) in a move it said was intended to protect customers from “excessive, illegitimate, and illegal prices” stemming from a mid-February winter storm. A utility statement said that “ERCOT’s failure” during the days-long weather event and related power shortages led to “one of the largest illegal transfers of wealth in the history of Texas.”

 

[SageBrush]

excessive, illegitimate, and illegal prices

Lawyers do love commas.
It would strike my fancy to see the producers also sue ERCOT for inadequate, illegitimate, and illegal price constraints.

Farce deserves more farce

 

[mspohr]

CAUGHT ON TAPE: Gov Abbott crony promises Wall Street that Texas freeze profits safe. Texans screwed

Even as dozens of Texans died, sustained thousands of damages to their homes, starved, & lost their savings, Abbott cronies assuring Wall Street their stolen profits are safe. Texas Governor Abbott instrumental in screwing Texans See full...

www.dailykos.com

Audio emerged of Texas Public Utility Commission chairman Arthur D’Andrea effectively promising Wall Street that they had nothing to worry about. The fraud that pilfered the Texas population where they paid $16 billion more for electricity for two days than they had to will remain. Check out the video above for a prescient commentary.


TexasMonthly reported the following.

While many Texans last week were worried about sky-high electric bills from February’s winter storms, the state’s sole utility commissioner was privately reassuring out-of-state investors who profited from the crisis that he was working to keep their windfall safe.
Texas Monthly has obtained a recording of a 48-minute call on March 9 in which Texas Public Utility Commission chairman Arthur D’Andrea discussed the fallout from the February power crisis with investors. During that call, which was hosted by Bank of America Securities and closed to the public and news media, D’Andrea took pains to ease investors’ concerns that electricity trades, transacted at the highest prices the market allows, might be reversed, potentially costing trading firms and publicly traded generating companies millions of dollars.
“I apologize for the uncertainty,” D’Andrea said, promising to put “the weight of the commission” behind efforts to keep billions of dollars from being returned to utilities that were forced—thanks to decisions by the PUC—to buy power at sky-high prices, even after the worst of the blackout had passed.

And then we have this:

The economic development agencies of Arizona and New York are harvesting soundbites from the Texas Legislature’s grid-failure hearings to win Samsung’s competition for their new $17 billion chip manufacturing plant. Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia will gather clips from the hearings too, to make Texas’ electrical infrastructure look too unreliable. Can Samsung, or really any corporation, afford to risk their businesses and employees’ lives by moving to Texas?
In addition to the immediate losses of tens of billions of dollars, Texans were hammered in a Wall Street Journal analysis showing that they paid $28 billion more than consumers in regulated electricity markets. This is not news. Journalist L.M. Sixel of the Houston Chronicle has detailed the electricity cost disadvantages for Texans in several stories over the years.

 

[SageBrush]

The fraud that pilfered the Texas population

'fraud' ? Nonsense

I'm willing to bet that this will go to court and judgement will favor the generators. The Texas power system is frightfully stupid, but that does not make it fraudulent. And I'll say it again: Texas consumers loved their free-market system ... until last month, when they didn't. As for the PUC chairman, his soothing words can be read as telling his generators that Texas will not renege on its promise of a free market. After all, it *was* the free market promise that resulted in these highly speculative generators entering the Texas market in the first place.

I imagine that the PUC cap of $9/kWh was a placemarker for what they thought was an unreachable price. If they want to be true to their ideology they need to get rid of a cap altogether.

 

[21EV]

Fascinating discussion. A key thing to remember is that ERCOT is a non-profit that manages the grid, attempting to match supply and demand across the state. They are running a marketplace of sorts. They also function to make sure that power is reliable but I believe only on a short term basis like switching from one transmission circuit to another when things get overloaded or there is a localized issue.

The PUC of Texas is the regulatory body and is a state agency. I would think they could enact regulation but they might only be responsible for the transmission and distribution of power and not generation. I don’t think a finger can be pointed at any one entity because I think there is significant blame for most, if not all, parties involved.

The topic of capacity markets mentioned earlier has some merit and that is done by other grid operators but certainly isn’t a silver bullet. A mechanism to force the winterization of the generation assets would also help but again that wouldn’t solve everything. It’s also interesting that many companies simply build their own generation to keep operating, something that Tesla might even do with their own batterymat some point.